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322 starter

8K views 34 replies 8 participants last post by  322Chrish 
#1 · (Edited)
The starter on my 322 stopped turning the engine over. Here is the series of events so far.
Last week
When I turn the key to start nothing happens.
When I leave the key in the run position and jump the starter, sparks fly and the starter motor turns rapidly.
After a couple of tries it then engaged the engine.
Now
When I turn the key to start nothing happens.
When I leave the key in the run position and jump the starter, sparks fly and the starter motor turns rapidly but won't engage the engine.

Now I am thinking I need to replace the starter. But new starters range from $70 all the way up to $200+ (John Deere) since I am NOT looking for a complete original who makes a better replacement for the best price?
 
#4 ·
What if it's not the starter?? Seems to me that a good place to start would be to buy a good reliable used starter first to make sure that that's the problem before sinking a lot of money into a first class expensive part. Is there a lot of hours on that 322? My 330 has over 1500 hours on it after 30 years and still starts the engine up without a problem. (Better bite my tongue and shut up before I have a problem!)

Mitch Daly :bash:
 
#5 ·
Chris,

I don't think it is the starter either since it actually spins when you jumper the high current posts.

You need to look into why your 322 is not cranking with the key, and separately why it is not firing and running (although the two symptoms may both relate to safety circuits...

Here is the starter motor enabling wiring excerpt:
Text Font Line Design Illustration


You can see in the schematic that your tractor passes voltage from the battery to the large stud terminal of the starter's integral solenoid and continues on from there through the fusible link to the B terminal of your key switch. Since no year model of the 322 can be any 'younger' than 25 years old, this key switch is a very good place to start suspecting issues. If your tractor has more than just a few hundred hours on it and if it has not been parked inside all its life and never been pressure washed, your key switch may still be serviceable -- otherwise consider replacing it just to have a more reliable tractor even if it is not the root cause of your present issues. Carefully check the harness connector at the key switch for signs of corrosion or overheating from high currents and service as needed to ensure good connections to the new switch.

From the key switch terminal IGN and through the 25 amp fuse F1 the voltage should be presented to the safety switches whenever the key is in the ON or START positions. If you don't have a rear PTO there should be a jumper at X5 to bypass its absence. As you can see in the diagram, 322 tractors of SN596006 and above have the parking brake switch fitted. The PTO switch(es) must be OFF, the neutral switch closed and the parking brake set for the voltage from the key switch to make it to the Neutral Start relay's coil to pull it in. When energized, the neutral start relay allows voltage from the ST terminal of the key switch to power the starter solenoid through the 280 purple wire that goes to the solenoid's S terminal. If you don't have voltage there when the key switch is in the START position -- start tracing things back through the circuit shown as something is open. When you do have voltage at the S terminal of the solenoid and the starter motor does not spin, you may have a failed solenoid.

The ignition interlocks on the 322 can also keep it from firing even when the starter is cranking the engine as it should mechanically. The ignition circuit looks like this:
Text Diagram Font Design Plan


Notice that it is somewhat interconnected with the safety switches of the starting diagram above by the #810 purple/black wire coming from the Neutral Start Relay -- it is connected at the relay winding terminal where the #811 purple wire connects, but that branching is not shown in the excerpt (it is in the overall schematic in the TM1591 Service Manual...) Whenever the safety switches in the first diagram here satisfy conditions such that the Neutral Start Relay is energized, the voltage on this connection via the #810 wire to terminal 7 of X13 on the TDCM will bypass the seat safety and time delay such that the TDCM should supply voltage at terminal 2 of X13 to the ignition coils and the hour meter. Whenever the PTO switch(es) are ON, the brake is released, or the ground speed lever is not in the neutral/ STOP slot in the dash -- the operator MUST BE IN THE SEAT for the engine to remain running. The seat switch is sensed at terminal 9 of X14 at the TDCM, and for this to happen the switch and its harness wiring must be in operational condition and the fuse F2 must be intact.

Give us some more information on your findings as you review the above when working on your tractor. Since you can jumper the high current contacts on your solenoid on the starter and get it to spin -- I doubt the starter is the root cause of your issues. For my money I would start with replacing the key switch and inspect/clean the harness connections there...

Good luck and let us know what you find.

Chuck
 
#6 ·
Thanks Chuck,
If the key switch is suspect I can tell you that I have both front and rear PTO's.

In the past if it would not start I would put the key in the run position and engage and disengage both pto's then turn the key to start and sometimes after a couple of try's it would power up the starter and then the engine.

Now I can turn the key to start and engage and disengage both pto's,turn the key to start and nothing happens.

So today I will try to reach behind it and clean the wiring connectors which I have done in the past but it is a real chore as it is really tight in there.
Thanks again,
 
#7 ·
Chris,

It does sound like it is related to the wiring in the first diagram of my post #5 above, since you have had some experience with wiggling switches. etc.

What year is your 322? If it is one of the first that had the brake switch, or if the brakes have worn down and not been adjusted -- it might be true that the brake switch and/or its bracket has been pushed out of good engagement with a set parking brake by pedal over-travel. This happened on a 1000 hour 1992 model 318 that I acquired and had in the herd for a time where the prior operators (a church with volunteer landscape labor) had habitually used the brakes instead of returning the ground speed lever to the STOP slot to slow/stop the tractor. Here is a thread:
http://www.wfmachines.com/forums/showthread.php/11713-Brake-pedal-adjustment-on-a-318

Chuck
 
#8 ·
Chris,

I found the text from my original post in 2010 regarding the brake switch issue I encountered on that 1992 318:
Here is one from the school of hard knocks today. This would apply to 316 tractors above SN 596,121, 318 tractors above SN 600,305 and 420 tractors above SN 595,881. It also would apply to 322 tractors above SN 592,006., 332 tractors above SN 596,723 and 430 tractors above SN 596,048.

I was beginning to work on the 1992 318 I bought a few weeks back, having just received the new seat and REV4 hydro linkage dampener from my Deere dealer. Popped off the fender deck and removed the old dampener. Also did a quick replacement of the hydro sight tube hose as it was very brittle and fell apart when I touched it -- it was the original and had "John Deere" stamped along its length. Got the new gas cylinder dampener in, and while I had the fender deck off I took the opportunity to look further into a brake issue that was noticed when I first got this tractor.

It was necessary on this particular tractor to press the brake pedal down further than the parking latch engagement point to get the tractor to crank over...and it was getting worse all the time. Also, the brake was not holding very well in the park position.

Upon inspection, it appeared that the brakes were really out of adjustment, so I went through the procedure in the TM1590 for both the drum /star wheel adjustment and the brake rod adjustment. Now the brake holds just fine, but the engine wouldn't crank.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT BIT: If you let the brakes get too far out of adjustment (as the PO did) the over-travel of the pedals will shear off one or both of the aluminum pop rivets that hold the brake switch in place. Then the switch will rotate out of engagement, and might fall completely away from the frame channel where it is mounted.

I did not want to fuss with removing all the front hydraulic lines, or pull out the battery tray, or whatever else might be needed to get a pop rivet tool in those close quarters. Ended up using some 10-32 hardware similar to that used on the seat safety switch for the hinged (deluxe) seat, as this is the same switch module that is used for the brake switch. These 10-32 screws might not shear as easily as the aluminum pop rivets, so I will keep an eye on the brake adjustment going forward for sure!!


Chuck
 
#9 ·
Chris,

Removing the pedestal side screens should give you reasonably good access to the key switch and its connections. I cannot stress enough that REPLACING the switch is the right course of action when you have intermittent symptoms like you are having...90+% of the time it is the root cause and for those few times it is not it still gives a baseline to no longer suspect it of contributing to the issue.

This switch is less than $30 from Deere and is part number AR58126 -- here is a good vendor I use quite a bit that often has free shipping...
https://www.greenfarmparts.com/SearchResults.asp?search=AR58126

Chuck
 
#11 · (Edited)
Chris,

I don't recall if your tiller is a belly pump version or the rear drive... The drive belts on the rear drive 30 hydraulic tiller must be a matched pair (and of course Deere brand to ensure the effective length and v-groove angle are as specified...) If you are unsure of the condition of the belts that you got with the tiller as to being matched or as to condition/remaining life this might be a good time to renew them. These belts are only sold as a pair by Deere as seen here:

https://www.greenfarmparts.com/SearchResults.asp?search=AM101711

If your tiller is a belly drive style, it just uses the same belt as your mower deck...

Chuck
 
#13 ·
FYI the order arrived today. Very excited to see all these new parts. Looked them all over and the handle for the tiller (nice and shiny) however no "pin" for it to lock. Hmm can I just go to the local hardware store and get a role pin? Does anyone know the length it needs to be or should I just measure the slot it goes through?
 
#15 ·
Many Thanks now back to the starting issue.
I replaced the ignition switch. Used dielectric grease on the connections and made sure they were tight. Including a 6 wire block near the starter.
The results; All of the dash lights, when the key is turned to the run position and they come on, are now much brighter. When the key is moved to start it does nothing.
I cannot process the wiring diagrams, There is too much information in them. If you could cut it down to 2-3 steps what's left of my brain can follow it.
Thank you
 
#16 ·
OK so I went back to check the brakes. Way out of adjustment. Some wrenching. Hold down brake pedals make sure gear select is pressing on the switch turn key and nothing. Turn key to run toggle both pto's turn key to start and (holy garden tractors batman) it started. I am so happy I don't have try and decipher all the electrical stuff.
Many thanks to all :210:
 
#19 ·
my neutral switch needs the lever pushed, make is nice so kids cant start it up not knowing this trick
 
#21 ·
cant start with PTO engaged, that would be a big load for the starter if engaged
 
#22 ·
The pto switches have two pass through paths. One for start and one for a run signal to the seat switch. If you get the directions for installing a rear pto it shows which ones. Do the same on both pto switches then check which one is bad after showing it starts reliably otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#23 ·
One more piece to the puzzle.
Many times the rear PTO won't activate unless I activate the front PTO first.
On a side note the rear PTO dash light has dislodged and fallen down. I tried to reach it but the space is just too small. Any hints on getting it back in?
Thanks,
 
#25 ·
The start circuit runs through those switches. The starter has a hard enough time doing what it does regularly. Adding the resistance of a deck and/or a rear implement would kill it fast. It would also make it harder for the engine to start dragging one or more of those things as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#26 ·
So the front PTO switch seems to be where the problem lies since you must have it on to sometimes power the second (rear PTO). You will need to pull the connectors off and inspect the switch if not pull the switch, look for corrosion or broken internals. Check switch with ohm meter looking for resistance (with no wires attached), there should be none with the switch closed, infinite resistance when it is open. The TM should have the electrical schematic with the switch operation/wiring in it.
 
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