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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Operating Tractor with no issues mowing lawn, stopped tractor ate lunch, when I returned to start tractor and put away in garage, the tractor started fine, however I went to put it in forward the engine died immediately. I tried to nurse it back in garage with no success, raised the transmission lever on the side and pushed tractor in garage. I tried adjusting neutral safety switch with no succes. I ordered a new switch and installed hoping this was an easy fix, wrong. Tractor repeats the same condition as initially. I have tried unplugging front, rear lights and hour meter to see if they may be the culprit. I have the TM 1591 manual and have done some test, still can not identify the issue. Tractor has 2000 hrs on it all original as it was my dads, always maintained. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciate, I am not very good with electrical issues. Thanks
 

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If the engine ignition is disabled when the tractor is taken out of neutral, then there is an issue with the seat switch circuitry below:
Font Material property Schematic Parallel Pattern


Verify that the seat switch is operational, and that the 10 amp fuse F2 and its holder are providing power to the seat circuit. The red circle shows the seat bypass input to the TDCM that comes from the K1 Neutral Start relay -- that voltage is present whenever the starting interlocks are all satisfied. While not shown in the excerpt below, that #810 wire comes from the same relay terminal as the #811 wire.
Font Parallel Schematic Engineering Slope


As long as the parking brake is set, the neutral switch is closed (ground speed lever in neutral) and the PTO switches are OFF, the #810 wire will provide a voltage to the TDCM terminal X13 pin 7, and the ignition will be enabled. When those conditions are not true, the only thing keeping the ignition "hot" is the presence of an operator in the seat and a resultant voltage on TDCM terminal X14 pin 9. Check these conditions out and then let us know what you find...

Chuck
 

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I had the same thing happen to me last summer on my 430. A quick inspection revealed a broken wire at the seat switch on the tractor side. A quick twisting of wires solved the issue and got it back to the shop. I DO NOT recommend bypassing safety switches, this only got it to the shop. Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If the engine ignition is disabled when the tractor is taken out of neutral, then there is an issue with the seat switch circuitry below:
View attachment 285936

Verify that the seat switch is operational, and that the 10 amp fuse F2 and its holder are providing power to the seat circuit. The red circle shows the seat bypass input to the TDCM that comes from the K1 Neutral Start relay -- that voltage is present whenever the starting interlocks are all satisfied. While not shown in the excerpt below, that #810 wire comes from the same relay terminal as the #811 wire.
View attachment 285937

As long as the parking brake is set, the neutral switch is closed (ground speed lever in neutral) and the PTO switches are OFF, the #810 wire will provide a voltage to the TDCM terminal X13 pin 7, and the ignition will be enabled. When those conditions are not true, the only thing keeping the ignition "hot" is the presence of an operator in the seat and a resultant voltage on TDCM terminal X14 pin 9. Check these conditions out and then let us know what you find...

Chuck
Chuck,

I confirmed with a test light I have power to both the Neutral safety switch and the seat safety switch with the key on the on position utilizing a test light. Tractor will start and run for about a minute then cut out and blow the 10 amp fuse. It also blows a fuse if I turn the pto switch on. On of the test I did was with the fuel solenoid valve on the carburetor which tells you to place a screw driver on the solenoid as it amplifies the sound, I heard no sound so I took apart the solenoid and it seems to move freely thinking it may be a fuel problem. Not sure what is causing the fuses to keep blowing, is this a wiring issue or faulty switch. I am stumped. Thank you for your advice. Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Do you hear the fuel pump running before you turn the key fully to start it? Is the brake set & locked?
Yes fuel pump is working, it will sit there for about a minute or two in neutral and run like there is nothing wrong, then it just dies and blows the 10 amp fuse without trying to move the tractor or turn on the PTO, if I try either of these two it blows the fuse quicker. The fuel pump was one of the items I checked when it first happened. I am wondering if I have a short some where. This tractor has been running fine all year. Maybe it’s age is catching up. I don’t believe you have to set the brake on this serial number tractor, I have never had to set the brake or see any safety switch at the brakes. Thanks
 

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Tony,

When it "dies" is it as if the key was turned off, or is a matter of running rough first as if it is out of fuel? The 10 amp fuse has a few things it powers, so removing each from the picture one at a time should lead to finding the culprit. If yo have a good ammeter function on your digital multi-meter (and it has a range of at least 20 amps of so...) you might try measuring what current is present THROUGH the fused circuit. I have a clamp-on DC ammeter which is quite handy for these types of measurements and does not require breaking into the wiring. Don't worry if you can't do this as the below will also help in isolating the issue:

The 10 amp fuse powers the following items:
1. the seat switch
2. the sense input to the voltage regulator
3. the low fuel lamp on the dash
4. the fuel pump
5. the oil pressure lamp on the dash
6. the coolant temperature lamp on the dash

Since the fuse blows when the key switch is turned on with the engine idling for this to happen, then we can disconnect these items one at a time to see if things change. You should be able to idle the engine with the parking brake set and no one in the seat -- so unplugging the seat switch is something to try. The engine will also start and idle with the voltage regulator unplugged, so try that. If the fuse is still blowing with these two items disabled, next try the three dash lamps. You won't be able to idle very long with the fuel pump disabled, but try it anyway to verify the engine runs out of fuel and the fuse does not blow in that short interval.

Let us know what you find...

Chuck
 

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This is the type of clamp-on ammeter that I use for troubleshooting -- handy that you do not need to open a circuit to make direct amperage measurements!! The 40 amp DC current scale reads down to a fraction of an amp... Since this meter also does the other basic multi-meter functions of volts and ohms, it is my favorite for vehicle troubleshooting tasks. I recall that I bought this at a Home Depot store for under $100 some time ago.
Font Automotive tire Technology Camera accessory Auto part


Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This is the type of clamp-on ammeter that I use for troubleshooting -- handy that you do not need to open a circuit to make direct amperage measurements!! The 40 amp DC current scale reads down to a fraction of an amp... Since this meter also does the other basic multi-meter functions of volts and ohms, it is my favorite for vehicle troubleshooting tasks. I recall that I bought this at a Home Depot store for under $100 some time ago.
View attachment 285965

Chuck
This is the type of clamp-on ammeter that I use for troubleshooting -- handy that you do not need to open a circuit to make direct amperage measurements!! The 40 amp DC current scale reads down to a fraction of an amp... Since this meter also does the other basic multi-meter functions of volts and ohms, it is my favorite for vehicle troubleshooting tasks. I recall that I bought this at a Home Depot store for under $100 some time ago.
View attachment 285965

Chuck
Thanks Chuck for the next steps, I will definitely check each of these in the order you recommended and report back. Appreciate your input for sure. Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Tony,

When it "dies" is it as if the key was turned off, or is a matter of running rough first as if it is out of fuel? The 10 amp fuse has a few things it powers, so removing each from the picture one at a time should lead to finding the culprit. If yo have a good ammeter function on your digital multi-meter (and it has a range of at least 20 amps of so...) you might try measuring what current is present THROUGH the fused circuit. I have a clamp-on DC ammeter which is quite handy for these types of measurements and does not require breaking into the wiring. Don't worry if you can't do this as the below will also help in isolating the issue:

The 10 amp fuse powers the following items:
1. the seat switch
2. the sense input to the voltage regulator
3. the low fuel lamp on the dash
4. the fuel pump
5. the oil pressure lamp on the dash
6. the coolant temperature lamp on the dash

Since the fuse blows when the key switch is turned on with the engine idling for this to happen, then we can disconnect these items one at a time to see if things change. You should be able to idle the engine with the parking brake set and no one in the seat -- so unplugging the seat switch is something to try. The engine will also start and idle with the voltage regulator unplugged, so try that. If the fuse is still blowing with these two items disabled, next try the three dash lamps. You won't be able to idle very long with the fuel pump disabled, but try it anyway to verify the engine runs out of fuel and the fuse does not blow in that short interval.

Let us know what you find...

Chuck
Chuck sorry I didn’t answer your first question, it runs smooth and idles up with no issues then dies all of the sudden within two minutes and blows a fuse every time. I don’t believe it’s a fuel problem. Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Tony,

When it "dies" is it as if the key was turned off, or is a matter of running rough first as if it is out of fuel? The 10 amp fuse has a few things it powers, so removing each from the picture one at a time should lead to finding the culprit. If yo have a good ammeter function on your digital multi-meter (and it has a range of at least 20 amps of so...) you might try measuring what current is present THROUGH the fused circuit. I have a clamp-on DC ammeter which is quite handy for these types of measurements and does not require breaking into the wiring. Don't worry if you can't do this as the below will also help in isolating the issue:

The 10 amp fuse powers the following items:
1. the seat switch
2. the sense input to the voltage regulator
3. the low fuel lamp on the dash
4. the fuel pump
5. the oil pressure lamp on the dash
6. the coolant temperature lamp on the dash

Since the fuse blows when the key switch is turned on with the engine idling for this to happen, then we can disconnect these items one at a time to see if things change. You should be able to idle the engine with the parking brake set and no one in the seat -- so unplugging the seat switch is something to try. The engine will also start and idle with the voltage regulator unplugged, so try that. If the fuse is still blowing with these two items disabled, next try the three dash lamps. You won't be able to idle very long with the fuel pump disabled, but try it anyway to verify the engine runs out of fuel and the fuse does not blow in that short interval.

Let us know what you find...

Chuck
Chuck, I have 12.25 amps with key on at the fuse block. I tried disconnecting each item with no success until I disconnected the voltage regulator, once I unplugged that the tractor remained running (5 minutes) until I turned the key off. I did replace the voltage regulator several years ago with an aftermarket one. Should I proceed with purchasing anew OEM voltage regulator from Deere? The wiring is in excellent shape as I cleaned everything up several years ago And installed heat shield around the wires which have helped. Appreciate your technical advice Chuck. I will wait for your recommendation moving forward. Tony
 

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Tony,

Yes the VR may be bad and need replacement. Be sure to inspect the connections from the alternator into the VR to verify that there has not been an excessively high current present there. Sometimes as a battery gets to end of life it gets a partially shorted cell that causes the charging system to work overtime -- what is the age and condition of your battery?

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Tony,

Yes the VR may be bad and need replacement. Be sure to inspect the connections from the alternator into the VR to verify that there has not been an excessively high current present there. Sometimes as a battery gets to end of life it gets a partially shorted cell that causes the charging system to work overtime -- what is the age and condition of your battery?

Chuck
Chuck, battery is approximately 2 years old and seems to be working fine. Do you have an opinion on aftermarket voltage regulators or prefer Deere? Deere wants $112 and aftermarket is $40. I don’t mind paying if it will make a difference in the long run, just curious on your opinion? Thanks and I will check back in once I replace the voltage regulator. Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Chuck, battery is approximately 2 years old and seems to be working fine. Do you have an opinion on aftermarket voltage regulators or prefer Deere? Deere wants $112 and aftermarket is $40. I don’t mind paying if it will make a difference in the long run, just curious on your opinion? Thanks and I will check back in once I replace the voltage regulator. Tony
Chuck, upon further review of the wiring at the voltage regulator (removed the heat shield cover) I see several of the wires have melted and I will have to replace the wiring connectors/wiring. i noticed the same condition not long after I received the tractor and the wiring was butchered up so I replaced it. Any advice on this situation, maybe I should have the battery load tested? Should I replace wiring and voltage regulator only or is there another piece to the puzzle that I should do now while I am in it this far? Thanks again.
 

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Over current conditions and overcharging are often related to the "battery boiling" symptoms that can occur when the voltage sense input to the VR is not an accurate reflection of the battery terminal voltage...this causes the VR to continue charging even though the battery is at or above 13.8 volts. Have you noticed any loss of electrolyte in the battery on a regular basis? You will want to restore the wiring in the VR area to a sound condition...and check also the leads from the alternator.

What occurs with the overgharge symptom is that the voltage sense wire on the regulator (the #530 green wire) has some voltage drops compared to the battery terminal voltage -- these drops are due to age and wiring condition in the harness and are mostly in the Key switch, the fuse holder and the harness wires/splices themselves. Deere had a bulletin on this with a relay solution to address it, which I will attach below. The wiring in the bulletin is difficult to read, so here is a better diagram:
Rectangle Slope Font Schematic Parallel


Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Forgot to answer that the Deere regulator part is a reliable replacement. Some of the aftermarket ones can be also, but I have heard of a few that did not work out...

Chuck
Thank you Chuck for walking me through this, greatly appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help others. I will report back once all work has been completed. Tony
 

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I’ve had this ok luck with the knock off vr’s. The thing I don’t like is the way they mount. Thier about 1/2” shorter in length so the bolts barely hold on both edges. Basically ALL 332, 322’s at some point go through this repair or will need to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thank you Chuck for walking me through this, greatly appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help others. I will report back once all work has been completed. Tony
Chuck, good news. Installed a new voltage regulator from Deere ( same identical one as my old aftermarket one) and everything is working normal. Battery voltage is 13.10 at idle and 14.50 full throttle. Are these numbers normal and or should I take battery to have it tested further? Thank you again for al of your help in working me through this. Have a nice Thanksgiving! Tony
 

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Tony,

Those voltages are at the high end of nominal, so you should be OK. One verification you can do is to measure the voltage at the positive post of the battery and compare it to the voltage on the green wire at the VR -- if the green wire voltage is lower by more than about half a volt, then the relay modification may be in your future...

Glad you got your tractor operational again...and have a great holiday!!

Chuck
 
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