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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Mowed my 4 acres today and noticed while mowing that the battery discharge light was on. Was on for quite a while then went off for 10 minutes, then came on again for maybe a half hour and went off for a short time. Repeated this for 5 hours of mowing. Whenever I would stop and turn off the front PTO the light would go out. If I run without the PTO on, the light is off--the way it should be.

Is the PTO drawing more current than it should? Is the field coil close to burning out? The PTO clutch seems to be working fine yet.

I'm not very good with troubleshooting the electrical so any suggestions are appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So today I did the resistance test on the field coil. My PTO is the old style single wire. I assume that I touch the other meter lead to the engine block, is that correct? If so, then my meter is reading 3.8 ohms. That's within the correct range of 3.5 to 4.9 ohms that I read in an old posting here.

What's the next thing to check--regulator? I repowered my 316 with a Vanguard 18 hp, so the regulator is a Briggs about 3 years old.
 

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Is there a fuse inline with the clutch coil? Or maybe the wiring to the coil has been rubbing on something and may be shorting to ground... at times? Fuses might not always blow in case of a problem however. OR you could be having an issue with the charging system. It would be nice to have a voltmeter hooked up when it was running, (insulated alligator clips) get a reading. Then flip on the PTO and see what happens to the same reading. You could also hook up an amp meter in series with the coil for a comfirming reading.
 

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Your light may be coming on not because of the PTO but because the charging system isn't putting out to its full potential. It is not producing enough electricity to run the tractor and the PTO. Voltage regulator, stator or other wiring defect. Roger
 

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Jerry,

Your symptoms are somewhat intermittent and could be related to heavy current draw by the PTO when it comes up to working temperature -- sometimes the early indications of internal winding shorts would be evident only when hot. The resistance you measured at room temperature is well within nominal, but it could be that the PTO has a lower resistance due to an internal short at elevated temperatures. A PTO may still engage properly and stay engaged even with some coils shorted, as it would then draw higher current. Electromagnetic coil strength is stated in terms of ampere-turns...

When the light on the dash comes on, you say that turning off the PTO immediately clears that condition -- if you turn on the headlights does it come back on? Remember that for the original Onan engine, the dash light is a VOLTAGE indication and not a charge state indication:



This means that the battery age and condition, the connections and grounds, the voltage regulator and the loads (headlights, PTO...) may all individually or in combination be involved in the dash light coming on. I am less familiar with the charging system on the Vanguard -- or even if that uses the same voltage indication or is a true charge current sensing method... Perhaps another member here with that re-power can chime in with some more specific advice. You could of course measure the battery voltage when the light is on and again when it is off -- that would tell us something. If you have schematics you can post to this thread that may help also.

Chuck

...another thing to think about in a re-power situation is the mechanical mounting of the PTO assembly itself -- sometimes the spacing is such that the moving part of the PTO clutch can rub lightly on the stationary winding face. If that happens, then the insulation/potting can wear thin and the coils become shorted. Probably not the case here, but thought it should be mentioned...
 

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You didn't say how many amp charging system your Briggs has. I have a Kohler 13 HP swapped into one of my 200 series. It only has a 1 amp charging system so i couldn't even run an electric fuel pump or lights on it. I ended up using a Briggs pulse fuel pump and no lights. Roger
 

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Chuck Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have been in electrical related fields since 1961. The resistance of wire increases when its warm. Wondering when the coil becomes warm it expands enough inside the metal housing to push the varnished wires against the housing enough to cause a short?
I've never had a PTO coil apart but had many a motor on the bench and the slots in the motor are insulated pretty well, enough to keep vibration from rubbing the wires.
 

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Bill,

There are two possible ways for windings to get shorted -- mechanical damage to the varnished wires, and heat damage to the varnished wires.

Not all mechanical damage is from vibration or thermal expansion -- look at these pictures of what a worn bearing in a PTO assembly can do:
http://www.wfmachines.com/discus/messages/335/248694.html

If a PTO winding gets shorted such that all the current passes through just a few turns, then heat damage can be quite pronounced:
http://www.wfmachines.com/discus/messages/17/289256.html
http://www.wfmachines.com/discus/messages/335/245328.html

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Was gone most of yesterday and all day today and have to work the next couple days, but I will see if the discharge light comes on when the headlights are on and check the voltage on the battery in the next day or two.

My grounds should be good, everything is still very clean from when I installed the Vanguard. But I will check them and make sure connections are tight.

I do have the original old-style fuse holders. Have never had a problem with them so the connectors have not been apart in years. When I have a chance I will open the connectors and look for corrosion in them.

Chuck, I do not have a schematic for the vanguard wiring and the users manual that came with the engine from Jim's Repair/Tractors does not state how many amp the 18 hp charging system has. Do not have a Vanguard service manual either. I may have to search online and see if one is available.

Like I said, electrical is not my strong suit, and I do not have professional testing equipment, only a Radio Shack Multimeter. But I can try any tests you suggest with the multimeter.

If it is the field coil intermittently shorting but I can't confirm that in any way, is it safe to use the PTO to mow when needed till the coil completely goes?
 

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Jerry,

If the winding of the PTO is intermittently shorting it would not hurt to use it until it no longer engages -- EXCEPT if the winding is being damaged by a worn bearing on the PTO, as other mechanical damage could ensue. Was this PTO original to the tractor before the repower? What kind of shape was it in when it went onto the new Vanguard?

Maybe you should try searching threads here about repower projects using the Vanguard to see if any other WFM member might have a wiring diagram...

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Chuck,

Yes, the PTO is the original. I cleaned it well and looked for damage when reinstalling onto the Vanguard--it looked in very good shape. It installed on the Vanguard easily and I did install a new bearing at that time 'cause the old one was making some noise.

Only difference from when it was on the Onan is I now have to have the throttle at about 3/4 to engage the PTO. Any lower throttle and the engine tends to stall. With the Onan I was always able to engage at about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Tested my battery tonight--not running/ignition switch off (12.5 v), running (13.7 v), headlights on with engine running (12.5 v). Ground connections are all clean and tight. Didn't have time to remove the hood latch support to be able to get to the fuse holders.

When I first started the engine and turned on the headlights the discharge light came on but after a couple of minutes the light went off and stayed off for longer than it was on.
 

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Sounds like your charging system is working, maybe not at 100%. The Regulator gets its ground through the case where its bolted to the engine. Unless you have actually removed the Regulator and cleaned the area where it mounts you can't really be sure. A bad ground or a poor connection someplace in the system and as suggested the old fuses might be the cause.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Had time this evening to check the fuse holders. They looked good, but to be sure I used a small wire brush to clean and shine the connectors and fuse ends. Also cleaned the battery terminals. Hooked everything back up, started up tractor. At 1/2 throttle, no discharge light. Turned on headlights and immediately light came on. Light went off after 45 seconds, then intermittently would flash on and off. Even though the fuses looked good should I replace them and see what happens?

I will check under the regulator and clean its mount tomorrow, all other grounds are clean and tight.
 
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