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I am betting on the starter being bad, and I am not a betting man!
 

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Thanks Joe. The PTO pulley turns freely. Even if it where hung up on crank it isnt attached to anything so it shouldnt cuase the issue - should it?
Etek, I just wanted to add that yes, the clutch can put a drag on the engine if it is hung up. Although I think you have eliminated that in your case, I would still pay attention to it as it could be causing your clutch to overheat. As the hub/shaft wears it will at some point stop moving freely. Add a little corrosion and moisture, and it will stop sliding on the crankshaft. If this happens while the clutch is engaged, it will cause parts to drag as the disc isn't allowed to move away from the driven disc and coil. It will constantly rub causing excessive heat. And the pully itself will still spin freely when disengaged.

I also did a little digging around about the replacement PTO clutch. There are numerous clutches available with either the 1" or 1.125" shafts. You likely have one or the other as both were used on the KT engines. You would need to order one with your shaft size, counter-clockwise, and with the pulley which closely matches your PTO pulley. The install is straight forward but you would have to fabricate an anti-rotation pin of some sort. Xtreme use to sell one that was adaptable to most engines but I don't see it listed any longer. If you send them (or 8ten) an email, they are both very helpful. They are reasonably priced and you can forget about the "gap" thing forever. It's well worth the effort to do the conversion.

For me, determining the rotation is always the hardest thing to determine but I'm told, and have no reason not to beleive it, that it is determined by the pulley placement on the shaft. With the sheave away (out) from the engine, it would take a CCW clutch. If the pulley(s) are mounted toward the engine, it would be a CW. But you should verify that for yourself. Of course, yours is mounted away from the engine.

One last thing, when you do install your starter, I assume you will have the driveshaft loose as you'll have to lift the engine some to get at it. Before you bolt the engine back down, test the new starter. That would also eliminate any unusual drag that the transmission might be causing. I have never seen that, but who knows. Anything is possible. Just be careful. If that starter acts normally, the engine will want to jump a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Ok guys - thanks to all for the help and advice. I pulled the front half of the PTO off. First, I pulled the pulley apart to ensure it was released from the magnet, then seperated it at the adjusting plate. I couldnt get to the bolts that hold the entire unit on as they are partly behind the mag. That would be a beeatch to remove! Anyways, when I tried it again she cranked like normal - yay! Took this opportunity to check compression and got 90 on both sides - good enough for the girls I know. 😊 Then I cleaned up the mating surfaces and put the front half of the PTO back on - loosely for now, so its engaged right now against the mag (no gap) but it still cranks fine and fast again (dont really understand why...🤔). Of couse it still wouldnt pop off so I had to diagnose an unrelated issue of no power to the coil....🙄. Once i got that sorted (1.5hrs!) she cranked and SPRUNG to life!! Running like a deere (that smokes and has emphysema...or maybe COVID). So i left it on a high note for tonight. In the end I dont really know WHY removing and reinstalling half the PTO would do it but Im glad it did.😃 Tomorrow i'll wind the PTO back down - any advice on how much gap this time?
Guess I learned something - electric PTOs are a PITA and now I have a spare starter...oh - and you guys are super helpful - cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
Thanks again Jetjoe. I wil start looking for a replacement. Of course as it is now starting
my new question is, when I reinstall the current PTO how much gap should try to start with? When all this occured I set it to .18. Right now, with the 4 adjusting bolts barely on the engine turns, starts and runs....but the pulley is locked against the mag. Should I tighten until the pulley runs freely, or just go with .18 again?
 

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Thanks again Jetjoe. I wil start looking for a replacement. Of course as it is now starting
my new question is, when I reinstall the current PTO how much gap should try to start with? When all this occured I set it to .18. Right now, with the 4 adjusting bolts barely on the engine turns, starts and runs....but the pulley is locked against the mag. Should I tighten until the pulley runs freely, or just go with .18 again?
Congratulations. I'm glad it wasn't something serious. Lesson learned? Always check what was done last.

I'm likely to cause a few extra comments here, but I'm not a big "gap" guy by any means. After making real sure all of the surfaces of the shaft and hubs are clean and move freely, with no excessive wear, springs in good condition, I go about installing the clutch differently than most. I generally assemble the clutch completely with the adjusting nuts moved in until the sheave freezes tight to the crankshaft and the nuts bottom out the springs. Then I back off the adjusting nuts a little at a time taking turns with each until the brake side of the clutch/brake has enough drag to make it difficult to turn the pulley. I seldom if ever check the gap and I've never had this method fail.

You can do it any way you like but I prefer this method. IMHO, that clutch gap is just not that important. If you energize that coil on the bench and hold that disc over it, it will yank that disc in from an inch or better away. The spring bands that allow the disc to move for and aft are capableof much longer travel than .018. (Keep your fingers out of the way.) It's likely something that was printed in a manual for a hard-to-explain procedure. The key is not so much the gap, but adjusting the springs equally.

These clutches are used in manufacturing plants and I have never seen a gap called out in any install manual or instruction sheet, other than garden tractors. It's likely a workable initial setting for a clutch in new condition. But I never had the need to check it as a routine maintenance item. So, I guess if you use the feeler gauge method, .018 is as good as any. Again, just make sure everything moves freely. If there is any wear whatsoever on the crankshaft, its time for a new clutch.
 
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An .018 gap will be fine, either start with or finish with! Start at .018 and check in a couple of places around the clutch.

A question for ya, have you unbolted the magnet/coil from the engine block at any time during your diagnosis?

There is very little clearance between the ID of the rotor... the part that's keyed to the crank and fits over the coil. By placing 2 or 3 wraps on tape on the outside of the windings/coil, slipping the rotor on, and then tighten bolts holding windings to engine... slip rotor back, remove tape, and you're good.

Hmm, 4 bolts. Either you have ab Onan clutch or you've got the wrong bolts loosened. Do the nuts you're adjusting have a spring? Bob
 

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An .018 gap will be fine, either start with or finish with! Start at .018 and check in a couple of places around the clutch.

A question for ya, have you unbolted the magnet/coil from the engine block at any time during your diagnosis?

There is very little clearance between the ID of the rotor... the part that's keyed to the crank and fits over the coil. By placing 2 or 3 wraps on tape on the outside of the windings/coil, slipping the rotor on, and then tighten bolts holding windings to engine... slip rotor back, remove tape, and you're good.

Hmm, 4 bolts. Either you have ab Onan clutch or you've got the wrong bolts loosened. Do the nuts you're adjusting have a spring? Bob
Yeeks Bob, I was thinking the same thing? Four bolts didn't register with me either but I thought I was misunderstanding him. If by some chance he had an Onan clutch on the Kohler engine, there must be adaptors involved. If so, that's where I would look. I've seen those shaft adaptors totally destroy a crankshaft.

Etec, some photos of the disassembled clutch would be helpful.
 

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I'm wondering if the field coil potting swelled when it was hot in the summer (field coil failing?) causing friction between the inner clutch plate and the field coil. As I understand things, the inner clutch plate is stuck and has not yet been removed. It is common for the inner clutch plate to stick onto the crankshaft requiring gentle use of a slide hammer or puller for removal. Removing the inner clutch plate would allow one to see what was really happening with the field coil, and will be necessary for replacement of the field coil or complete clutch assembly.
Harold
 
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The 317 ALSO had a Warner clutch with 4 bolts! From parts catalog PC1698:
Rectangle Slope Font Line Handwriting

I gotta think item #13 (qty 4) attaches windings to block. Bob
 
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That diagram should help him install it properly. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I keep seeing a 3 bolt clutch and since I haven't had too many machines other than 317's, I'm wondering where? I quit messing with the Oguras and Warner clutches some time ago. Too expensive, too hard to maintain, too finicky. I purchased the last Xtreme for the 420 from of all places, Walmart for $99 bucks.

Here is a photo of an Ox Clutch mounted on a Kohler Magnum 18 which has the same block as the KT17 at least in relation to the PTO. The gold piece is the anti-rotation pin. Don't use that part number as the Magnum may have a different shaft size.
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Rim Motor vehicle Gas

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Automotive design Vehicle
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
Thanks guys. Ill work on it again Wed/Thurs.
Here are photos of my set up. 4 bolts hold the unit to the engine and 4 adjusters. Same as the diagram provided by Bob. (The one sent by 8TEN had 3 bolts)
Hard to see in the photos but I put my driver on them to show how they are blocked largely by the field coil and will be a beeatch to remove. Have to remove exhaust then turn them a mm at a time! Guess I could pull the field coil off the crank snout as I go...
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Wood Automotive tire Gas Metal Close-up

Gesture Food Recipe Wood Tints and shades


Jetjoe - whats holding that unit to the block? Looks like its located on the shaft only - hence the anti rotation pin I guess.
 

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Thanks guys. Ill work on it again Wed/Thurs.
Here are photos of my set up. 4 bolts hold the unit to the engine and 4 adjusters. Same as the diagram provided by Bob. (The one sent by 8TEN had 3 bolts)
Hard to see in the photos but I put my driver on them to show how they are blocked largely by the field coil and will be a beeatch to remove. Have to remove exhaust then turn them a mm at a time! Guess I could pull the field coil off the crank snout as I go...
. View attachment 275249

View attachment 275251
View attachment 275250

Jetjoe - whats holding that unit to the block? Looks like its located on the shaft only - hence the anti rotation pin I guess.
You have to disassemble the clutch to get at those four bolts. Not that hard. Just the bolt on the crank, the four springs and it should slide off exposing the four bolts on the block.

As for the newer style clutches, there is no direct connection to the block. Just the crankshaft bolt. The anti-rotation pin is just that and only that. Most new mowers, if not all, use this style of PTO.

The type 8ten sent you is a newer version of the old style.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
When I pull the front half off the field coil still partly covers thoe 4 mounting bolts. Can the field coil be pulled off separately to expose those? According to diagram I think not. I do believe that is my issue - field coil hung up in crank snout. If the new unit don’t attach to block maybe a 3 hole would work? But why then did it have those holes if not to mount to block? I also wonder if I can loosen the field coil from the shaft and cure my problem?
Likely better just work at getting it off and either fixing /testing or get a new one. On that note no one has mentioned a Source for Warner replacements. 8TEN said no so I guess it’s the other one mentioned.
Thanks again - we’ll figure it out! Then you can watch the entire thing play out on YT! I have over an hour of edited footage to this point already!😠😥😲😂

I hope I don’t have to follow the same path donyboy37 did to get this one off!!
 

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I have always had a replacement Ogura clutch on my 317, so I have no experience with the original Warner brand for the 317. When I replaced the Ogura field coil the first time, I asked why mine had a different clutch than the manual showed. The seasoned parts guy told me that most people put on a complete new Ogura clutch when the Warner smoked it's coil because the complete Ogura cost about the same as just the coil for the Warner. Sounded believable 30 years ago.

Enough history. I have always wondered why the Warner parts diagram does not show the rotor as a separate part. Does the rotor not come off the Warner as the Ogura does? If not, this is why Etek cannot get to the capscrews to remove the field coil. Right or wrong? Does this type Warner have a bearing in the field coil too, as the "floating" style used on most machines today?
I'd like to get that straight in my head too.

tommyhawk
 

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Your picture shows the clutch is an Ogura brand--used on later 317"s and as a replacement for the Warner. Here is the Ogura parts diagram.

Motor vehicle Font Automotive design Auto part Rim

As I noted previously, the inner clutch plate (Deere calls this a rotor) #4 is keyed to the crankshaft and is often a bit stubborn to remove. Use a slide hammer carefully or a large puller. The engine cranking difficulty is likely due to the back of the inner clutch plate rubbing on swollen potting from the field coil (#2) or rubbing on the field coil housing. Check the resistance of the field coil. A value much less than about 3.3-4 ohms means the coil is failing (or as Tom would say, "smoked").
Harold
 

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That video explains exactly what I've been trying to tell you. If you have that same condition it's most likely the cause of your cranking problem. This is pretty simple stuff. That rotor, #4 in the drawing must float freely on the crankshaft for the clutch to work properly. And you need to get it off to get to those four bolts. There is nothing but rust holding it on at that point. Hopefully, the crankshaft isn't damaged. I wouldn't worry about testing the coil at this point. If it's "smoked", you'll know soon enough.
 

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Just to clarify, rotor #4 is stationary on the crankshaft once everything is assembled. The rotor #4 inner bore is jammed between a shoulder on the crankshaft and bushing #6 (pressed into assembly #7), and held by bushing #13 and bolt #14. Clutch engagement occurs with movement of the spring-bound clutch plate within the #7 assembly. Once the four nuts #8 and the bolt #14 are removed, in principle everything including #4 should slide right off the crankshaft except the field coil #2 (held on by four bolts #3). Typically #4 is bound by by a little rust like Joe says, but the good news is that I have never had to use a drill or fire to remove the rotor.
Harold
 

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Just to clarify, rotor #4 is stationary on the crankshaft once everything is assembled. The rotor #4 inner bore is jammed between a shoulder on the crankshaft and bushing #6 (pressed into assembly #7), and held by bushing #13 and bolt #14. Clutch engagement occurs with movement of the spring-bound clutch plate within the #7 assembly. Once the four nuts #8 and the bolt #14 are removed, in principle everything including #4 should slide right off the crankshaft except the field coil #2 (held on by four bolts #3). Typically #4 is bound by by a little rust like Joe says, but the good news is that I have never had to use a drill or fire to remove the rotor.
Harold
Your correct. Bad choice of words on my part. I was referring to how it should be at the time of installation.
 

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Harold, you are just the guy to answer my question. Isn't the Warner clutch, 317 application, built just like the Ogura with a rotor as a separate part, and one bearing in the armature/pulley assembly? I'm sure the parts are not interchangeable, but have been confused with the JD Parts diagram as shown.
I've had my adventures with the "floating" type clutches in the past. Not fun on a vertical shaft engine as shown in the video. :)

tommyhawk
 

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For you newer members, Harold is "Mr. 317" in my book. It is very hard to stump him on these machines. I don't know how he can remember all this stuff though! Thanks Harold!

tommyhawk
 
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