[walcott_pumpkin]

I need help figuring out how to get my PTO from my P218 to install and work on the new Kohler Command 23 hp I put in a couple years ago. Yes finished tractor restore and repower more than 2 yrs ago but still don't have the PTO working! Who can help me here?!!! The Kohler has a smaller shaft but I bought a sleve adapter from THE COMPANY. I have mounted the PTO a few times but can never get it to Ingage. The original coil literally shreaded to pieces and I bought a new coil part for the PTO. I think what would really help me first is to understand HOW the PTO works. Flip the switch and an electric magnet pulls two pieces together? I will be forever grateful to anyone who helps me finally get this fixed! Mike

 

[shadetree]

Mike I'm sure someone will jump in and tell you what you need. I did a couple Honda repowers several years ago. One was a kit from SEW. They furnished a 1/4 inch plate that went between the engine and clutch. They also furnished several different sized spacers that went on the shaft. As I remember you didn't use all of them but I don't remember how it was determined which ones were used.

 

[charms]

I'll take a shot at explaining how these PTOs work. The coil is bolted to the engine. The rotor is keyed to the crankshaft and rotates without touching the coil, around .100" clearance. When the coil is energized, the rotor becomes magnetized and pulls the armature (clutch part) toward it, making the pulley turn.
On a Deere Onan P218, the crankshaft has a shoulder at the right spot to position the rotor. On repowers it can require spacers or shims to get the right clearance between the coil and rotor.

 

[craft57]

Mike: ….you say you bought an adaptor sleeve ? ….. did it come with any other pieces, like spacer shims, or ??? …

Because as I just finished my Kohler re-power 2 months ago I manufactured my own pieces, like the shims and spacers where the 4 bolts hold the PTO clutch onto the engine block …. My donor Kohler CH22 had the 1-7/16" crankshaft already but never the less I still had to play a bit with the shimming of the rear of the clutch …. I had ample warnings from fellow members like JLang and Mike Duwe and others regarding the proper spacing OR you WILL burn up your clutch …. I still had my original P218 to compare to, it wasn't Rocket Science but I simply measured the offsets from both Motors and deducted the differences ….. I Worked/ Works Great !!!

Your Sleeve does it have a Shoulder as part of it ??? …. Other than the sleeve I may be able to Help with measurements (thickness of shims and pics ??? ….. cheers GK

 

[captaindan]

Mike, I have used the sleeve from THE company on three different motors that had 1" shafts. It is critical to get the sleeve on with it the keys and also to set up the internal distance between the rotor and the coil. This is not easy to measure. I documented some of this a while ago using a Vanguard but it is very much the same as using a Kohler Command. Pay close attention to the cross section diagram. That will help you understand the gap we are trying to build.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/106460198938703134721/albums/5639007081452077649?authkey=CMiPiu7uzNK5JQ

Hope this helps, Dan

 

[dan_hosler]

Dan Dillner's tutorial is an awesome resource. I have it bookmarked, and refer to it often. The cross section definitely takes a bit of studying, and I thought I could help with a few pictures.

The following is the PTO clutch sequence on the B&S Vanguard, but it should be the same for your Kohler Command. (The only difference / question being shim spacer thickness)


Bare Block with home-made studs installed:

Spacers installed on those studs (0.250 thick in this engine application):

Field winding coil installed:

Adaptor sleeve from THE Company installed:

Rotor installed: (This rotor is keyed to the crankshaft, and is always spinning)

PTO clutch disc and pulley installed:

PTO Cover installed. (This also serves as a brake when the PTO is disengaged):

 

[knottyrope]

nice pictoral Dan

 

[leadslingingdaddy]

I had one made up for the 420 double pulley PTO also...

 

[craft57]

Dan Hosler : ….. Nice pics ! ….. as it Appears from your pics, the Kohlers Crank Case is slightly different where the bolts are screwed in to retain the clutch … we have to shim up, only where the bolts go thru, BUT not for (again what appears in your pics) to compensate the for the raised casting of the larger Lip where your crank-seal is ….. as in your installation, I like your idea of using the studs, and using thinner machined down larger faced nuts …. We used a couple of washers, with one side ground off to create a flat sided edge, because of a dual bolt pattern they have close together …. the washers are mainly to level off to NOT BEND the rear clutch plate …… the only other reason I can see you would have to add a 1/4" spacer is due to a rear flange on your Collar to compensate for the overall smaller diam. size of the Vanguards crank-shaft (again, appearance only) …..

On the Kohlers the Main Diameter of the Crank-shaft is larger than the we need for our Ogura clutch's @ 1-7/16" and they turn down the outer diameter of the Crank PTO to either 1-1/8" or 1-7/16" (as mine is)

Dan Dillner : Your detailed cross section (in your tutorial) was a great help when I did my re-power, it helped me understand what the heck was going on ……

Actually it was not very difficult to figure out the spacing difference of shimming/spacing between the P218 and the Kohler, all I had to do was to determine WHERE the Crank Shoulder was in relation to the true faced mounting holes on the crank-case ….. A handfull of washers, a GOOD steel straight edge and a digital vernier caliper ….
Once I got started it only took 20 mins to accomplish the task ….. NOW I have it documented and will save a TON of time for the next one I do (Hopefully that will be a future 420….LOL) or for anyone here that wants the specs, Unfortunately I don't have a simple re-sizer to post pics here, but can/will e-mail them. ……… GK

 

[mikeduwe]

There are different variations of the mounting plates on the Kohlers. I have never shimmed the mountings on the 3 I have done just the crankshaft. But some kohlers have a pilot cut in them where the clutch would mount.

 

[captaindan]

The only time I have had to use shims is with the sleeve from THE Co. going from 1" to 1- 7/16".

The cross section drawing was done by Andre Blanchet and was extremely helpful to me in my first repower. I tried to tag him with credit in the tutorial but he did not want me to include that comment at the time. But he is guilty.

Dan

 

[craft57]

Out of curiosity Mike ??? ….. of the three Kohlers you used, Were any of them a stock 1-7/16" crank PTO end ??? …. mine was and the shoulder stop on the crank-shaft was identical measurement on both the 1-1/8" & 1-7/16" …. so ?? the picture i'm getting is that the sleeve you used has an extra shoulder as part of the sleeve ?? ….. if so that would automatically give the proper spacing needed to locate the Ogura
….. on the crank-case mount I was under the impression that they All had a dual bolt pattern casted in, only thing is that there is a shoulder differentiating the 2 bolt patterns …. that being said we (JLang & myself) on our engines had to add a slight spacer shim to compensate for the step …. I'm thinking that (not IF …LOL) but WHEN EVER I find a 420 that when I buy a Re-power engine I will buy one with the 1-7/16" PTO end …. if what you say is they have different patterns i'm going to have to make sure it's the one correct for the application ….. Very Interesting !! …. LOL
When ever I do the next re-power I will make my own kit, as I did on my 318 ….. it wasn't that difficult to do, the only hard part was the not Knowing what to expect ….. Am Actually looking Forward to the Next One !!! …. Cheers …. GK

 

[craft57]

Dan Dillner : ….. TAG Your IT !!! ……….. Accept the credit … It's yours …. LOL ……. Andre posts some amazing drawings !!! … typical FC from QC not wanting to take credit for it ….. LOL (just kidding Andre !!!) …….. GK

 

[mikeduwe]

Sleeve is a spacer to prevent the clutch from touching the magnet that's bolted to the engine when you torque the big bolt in the end of the crank. Do it with a wrench not an impact. Made my own bushing and impact on and deformed the bushing since its more of a chamfer than a shoulder on the 1 7/8" crank. Cooked a clutch coil.

They were 1 7/6" cranks. Got my spacers from Pruitt Engine.

 

[walcott_pumpkin]

Ohhhh wow you guys are amazing! I'll have to sit down and study this soon. I'm excited to get this done.

 

[walcott_pumpkin]

Ok I finally have a little time to work on this project. First off thanks a bunch to those willing to help me. God Bless you because making me understand this prob wont be easy! Ok here is a pic of my block.... First question I quess would be how do I determin if and what size spacers to use?

 

[walcott_pumpkin]

Field winding coil installed (without any spacer)

 

[walcott_pumpkin]

Adaptor sleeve from THE company. in this picture there is a small ring (spacer) on the sleeve. I believe this came with the sleeve but im not sure if or where it is intended to be used.

 

[walcott_pumpkin]

rotor installed

 

[captaindan]

Mike the spacing you need to shim to is hidden between the coil and the rotor. You can use a small amount of clay on the edge of the coil then press the rotor on tight. The space should be between .117 - .125" Take a look at page 5 on the tutorial

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/106460198938703134721/albums/5639007081452077649/5830292739087841826?authkey=CMiPiu7uzNK5JQ&pid=5830292739087841826&oid=106460198938703134721

You should be able to shim between the coil mount and the engine to achieve what you need on a kohler.