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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I think I'll just remove all body parts and start looking for bare wires and bad connections... I dunno, Maybe this regulator is a cheapo $22 off Amazon, no good. Maybe I burnt it up already... I could write a book on why this isn't going faster..We got home from 30 days in Kentucky and since then it's been nothing but crap needing fixed, mowed, done, etc.... Waiting on a new washer and dryer that she wants on the opposite side of the room so plumbing and drilling holes etc...We've been doing our laundry in my antique Maytag Wringer washing machine outside for 3 weeks now......Yesterday wife was having chest pains and we spent 4 hours at the ER. Her heart was going 170 beats per minute for over an hour and they had to stop her heart with medicine and restart it in order to reset the rythem. She's ok today but I had to keep an eye on her and be her slave today between tractor work...
I've been studying the TM1591 along with the pics you show and trying to work on it but I get discouraged easily.... Today I set up a 10' x 10' popup shade to work under because it's 110 degrees every day and I have no garage to work in.
I was able to get an hour's worth of wiring done before the wind came up and almost destroyed my makeshift garage....I rescued it and put away my stuff just in time for the Tornado monsoon to hit..... ugh.... Anyways... Sooner or later hopefully we'll get it figured out....
Oh, and I did check the + battery cable to make sure it wasn't shorting out....
 

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I think I'll just remove all body parts and start looking for bare wires and bad connections... I dunno, Maybe this regulator is a cheapo $22 off Amazon, no good. Maybe I burnt it up already... I could write a book on why this isn't going faster..We got home from 30 days in Kentucky and since then it's been nothing but crap needing fixed, mowed, done, etc.... Waiting on a new washer and dryer that she wants on the opposite side of the room so plumbing and drilling holes etc...We've been doing our laundry in my antique Maytag Wringer washing machine outside for 3 weeks now......Yesterday wife was having chest pains and we spent 4 hours at the ER. Her heart was going 170 beats per minute for over an hour and they had to stop her heart with medicine and restart it in order to reset the rythem. She's ok today but I had to keep an eye on her and be her slave today between tractor work...
I've been studying the TM1591 along with the pics you show and trying to work on it but I get discouraged easily.... Today I set up a 10' x 10' popup shade to work under because it's 110 degrees every day and I have no garage to work in.
I was able to get an hour's worth of wiring done before the wind came up and almost destroyed my makeshift garage....I rescued it and put away my stuff just in time for the Tornado monsoon to hit..... ugh.... Anyways... Sooner or later hopefully we'll get it figured out....
Oh, and I did check the + battery cable to make sure it wasn't shorting out....
I think I'll just remove all body parts and start looking for bare wires and bad connections... I dunno, Maybe this regulator is a cheapo $22 off Amazon, no good. Maybe I burnt it up already... I could write a book on why this isn't going faster..We got home from 30 days in Kentucky and since then it's been nothing but crap needing fixed, mowed, done, etc.... Waiting on a new washer and dryer that she wants on the opposite side of the room so plumbing and drilling holes etc...We've been doing our laundry in my antique Maytag Wringer washing machine outside for 3 weeks now......Yesterday wife was having chest pains and we spent 4 hours at the ER. Her heart was going 170 beats per minute for over an hour and they had to stop her heart with medicine and restart it in order to reset the rythem. She's ok today but I had to keep an eye on her and be her slave today between tractor work...
I've been studying the TM1591 along with the pics you show and trying to work on it but I get discouraged easily.... Today I set up a 10' x 10' popup shade to work under because it's 110 degrees every day and I have no garage to work in.
I was able to get an hour's worth of wiring done before the wind came up and almost destroyed my makeshift garage....I rescued it and put away my stuff just in time for the Tornado monsoon to hit..... ugh.... Anyways... Sooner or later hopefully we'll get it figured out....
Oh, and I did check the + battery cable to make sure it wasn't shorting out....
Jerry, did you install the relay that was mentioned earlier on post #14
I think I'll just remove all body parts and start looking for bare wires and bad connections... I dunno, Maybe this regulator is a cheapo $22 off Amazon, no good. Maybe I burnt it up already... I could write a book on why this isn't going faster..We got home from 30 days in Kentucky and since then it's been nothing but crap needing fixed, mowed, done, etc.... Waiting on a new washer and dryer that she wants on the opposite side of the room so plumbing and drilling holes etc...We've been doing our laundry in my antique Maytag Wringer washing machine outside for 3 weeks now......Yesterday wife was having chest pains and we spent 4 hours at the ER. Her heart was going 170 beats per minute for over an hour and they had to stop her heart with medicine and restart it in order to reset the rythem. She's ok today but I had to keep an eye on her and be her slave today between tractor work...
I've been studying the TM1591 along with the pics you show and trying to work on it but I get discouraged easily.... Today I set up a 10' x 10' popup shade to work under because it's 110 degrees every day and I have no garage to work in.
I was able to get an hour's worth of wiring done before the wind came up and almost destroyed my makeshift garage....I rescued it and put away my stuff just in time for the Tornado monsoon to hit..... ugh.... Anyways... Sooner or later hopefully we'll get it figured out....
Oh, and I did check the + battery cable to make sure it wasn't shorting out....
Jerry, did you install the relay the Chuck mentioned on post #14. I did on my 332 and so far it been working... good luck!
 

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Jerry,

Don't stress about this issue, family health matters always come first. I don't think any wires are shorted to some place they are not supposed to go from your measurements so far.

Yes, the red wire is a direct connect to the battery and should always read that battery voltage as you note. My inquiry was to find out the CURRENT being sent to the red wire by the regulator -- hence the discussions above of an amp meter being used. An induction amp meter indicates current flow in a wire, and clamp-on DC ammeters can do this. The little dash meter from a 110 tractor also used this induction technique, and no electrical connections to it are needed...just lay the wire in the slot behind the meter. Some automotive aftermarket amp meters need to pass al the current through them to get a reading, but that would work too. Most hand held digital multimeters do not have a large enough amps range to make this measurement.

Everything you have said about the way the regulator and the charge wire gets hot would indicate a bad/failed voltage regulator. I know that this is a new unit that you obtained to replace an older failed regulator with the same symptoms, so trying to find any other root cause that might effect both regulators seems prudent, and the reason a current measurement is requested.

One more thing to do is to verify that the battery is not an issue (a shorted cell would draw extra current during charge and could be a reason for the regulator failures. If it is not a relatively new battery, take it to an auto parts store where they can do a free load test for you. We know from your posts above that the battery died when using the PTO some time ago when this series of symptoms began...is this the same battery?

Hang in there -- there will be an actual reason (root cause) for all these charging issues to be occurring and we WILL find it...

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Quote:
(Jerry, did you install the relay the Chuck mentioned on post #14. I did on my 332 and so far it been working... good luck!)

I have not...yet. After over 30 years and almost 2000 hours it shouldn't all of a sudden need a relay installed but... it may come to that.

Chuck,
I'll see about getting an amp Guage from a parts store. I'm 45+ miles from anything like that.
My battery isn't even 1 year old since I replaced it. I have a load tester I'll hook it up today. I'm going to rig another RED jumper wire from the regulator to the battery BYPASSING the starter, and see what that does...
 

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Jerry,

That bypass of the red wire in the harness (and more importantly bypassing the solenoid terminal on the starter...) will be informative. (y)

Maybe the starter solenoid is failing in a manner that is giving a partial connection to the starter motor all the time or something weird like that...who knows.

I agree that the battery boiling relay fix is not going to address this present issue, and the fact that your test of the green wire shows no unusual voltage drops (it faithfully mirrors the battery voltage to present it to the regulator sense terminal...) means you do not need this relay. It would not hurt anything to install this relay, but I doubt it will help at all with this present symptom.

Let us know what you find with the red wire bypass...

Chuck
 

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Jerry,

Rather than buying a dedicated amp meter, you should consider buying a higher end digital multimeter that includes this function. They are not terribly expensive, and this one is under $40 and quite similar to the one I have had for years:

If you have a Home Depot near you or a Lowe's, they have similar items at nearly the same low prices. Here is the Lowe's link for theirs which is under $80:

Please note that some clamp on meters are AC amps only -- you need one that also reads high currents of DC.

Chuck

...even Harbor Freight has one for about $90 -- CM610A 600A T-RMS AC/DC Clamp Meter
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Just came back in from doing the jumper wire test. The regulator got hot enough to melt the beginning of the jumper wire before I shut it off.
The battery load test was good.
Measuring instrument Font Audio equipment Gadget Tool
g
Here's what I'm going to do now.
I'm going to order another Regulator, get a multimeter for amps like you show, and see what that does.
Here is the meter I have now and it doesn't go high enough in amp measurements.
I'm at a stand still until........
 

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Jerry,

Yes, the regulator you have now tests as though it has a failure at its output, so a replacement is going to be needed. :(

If you want to get a ratcheting crimp tool these are pretty common -- home depot has one by Klein which is high quality as is your present meter. Klein makes clamp on multi-meters also, but they are well over $120 each at most retailers. Here is the link to the crimp tool.

I suggest that you use terminals that have insulating shrouds like this, particularly when you no longer are using the 5-wire housing.
Water Electric blue Font Auto part Plastic


If you find the spade terminals on the regulator are too close together to use a shrouded terminal in all locations, at least use a shrouded one at every other location to ensure the adjacent connectors do not touch.

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 · (Edited)
Chuck,
Ok, I sat here drinking coffee and went Christmas shopping.
I ordered everything you suggested since it would cost me over $100 to drive to Colorado Springs and buy the stuff.
Klien Ratcheting Crimper.
New Regulator.
Klien Clamp on 600v Multimeter.
I figure for the money I'll need these tools anyway...someday..my problem is I so seldom use my multimeter that I have to read the instructions everytime I do try to use it.. ha.
When I get the necessary parts and tools, I'll immediately fix the connections properly and do an Amperage reading before it has a chance to heat up.....if it does.
Poorman has poor ways....Don't give up on me Chuck...
BTW, I switch to a battery that's never been used for anything other than a solar panel, no difference. The white alternator wires get extremely hot too. The red one going to the starter gets warm.
 

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Jerry,

Yes, if the regulator is failing such that it tries to supply a very large current to the battery, that current can only come from the alternator so its wires will also heat up.

I just got back from my local Home Depot as I was out buying some hardware and gardening supplies, and while there noticed they had a Klein CL390 meter for $99.99 -- some how I had not seen this model earlier. This meter looks to be about $75 on Amazon and is a very good choice.

When you get the meter, be sure to measure the existing current that is causing the heating BEFORE you change to the new regulator so we can make a judgement if the issue is the existing regulator or something else...

This forum is here for helping all vintage Deere garden tractor owners. As you already know the 322 is my favorite model in this series, so I will continue to be all the help I can be and will see it through until we solve this issue.

Chuck
 

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Lowes and Home Depot have been known to honor competitor's pricing on identical items, I don't know if they consider Amazon a competitor but I would sure think they would since Amazon is siphoning away a lot of sales. I got $100 knocked off a Dewalt sliding miter saw a couple years ago by showing them an online ad for the identical saw, they did not bat an eye.

I actually enjoy buying tools! Tom
 
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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Chuck,
I ordered the CL600.
Yes. I will test it before switching regulators.
My last run today I noticed the ALTERNATOR gets very hot even not hooked to the regulator. I put a shovel between the muffler and ALTERNATOR to see if it was exhaust heat. It's not. Why would the alternator housing be super hot, not wired up?
It's still producing 47+ volts...

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Jerry,

The Klein CL600 only measures AC amps with the clamp feature...it will not measure DC amps as needed for testing the output of the regulator (and other DC systems like the current draw of a 12 volt starter motor, etc.)

The Klein CL390 is a meter that can do both AC amps and DC amps via the clamp on feature. Maybe you can adjust your order...

Hopefully my information is timely enough for you to make the adjustment.

Chuck
 

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Jerry,

The alternator heating could be an internal short, or even a bearing dragging and producing enough friction to heat things up. When you had the alternator disconnected, the leads from the alternator were not touching each other or any other part of the engine, right? You might inspect the wires as they emerge from the alternator housing to see i any prior overheating has caused the alternator harness pigtail to be compromised...

It is odd -- must be a reason that will come to light as we test things.

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
STUPID ME... Thankfully I was able to cancel the CL600 and order the Klien CL390...thanks...
No, the leads were not touching anything, totally disconnected and separate.
Maybe I should order a new alternator?
What's another hundred bucks....ha...ugh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Well, I now have a new regulator, proper Crimper tool, and new multimeter. I already have many different types and sizes of wire and insulated ends.
I ordered a new Alternator because I do feel something is wrong with the old 33year/1900 hour unit.
I'm not going to attach my new regulator to the tractor without replacing the Alternator, I think I've already burnt up the other new regulator.
I'll do a couple tests with the old parts on there for now.



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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Alternator get hot whether it's connected to regulator or not connected to the regulator.

Alternator puts out 23.85 ac volts to 49.67 ac volts.

Regulator gets very hot when all wires are connected, but regulator stays cool when the red wire going to the starter is disconnected.

Regulator gets hot only when red wire is connected so..... I bypassed that wire and starter , installed a jumper wire to the battery and the regulator got hot again.

Measuring amps from regulator pin to red wire at WOT shows 3.6 amps. (1.5 amps at idle)
Measuring ac voltage from regulator pin to red wire shows 66 ac volts at wot which baffles me.
Switch to DC voltage on meter and its 7.36 volts. I'm not sure which way that is supposed to measure, ac or dc?
Anyway... Considering the alternator puts out power and wiring seems to be ok for testing... I'm about done with this... for a while anyway.
 

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Jerry,

The 3.6 amps your regulator is supplying to the battery via the red wire should not be enough to heat things up -- the system is designed for a 15 amps peak and will do more than that briefly. I suspect at 3.6 amps the wire itself is not getting very warm...but if the regulator is getting hot something inside has failed. Further, the voltage at that red wire should be over 12.5 volts for any appreciable current to flow, so again it appears that damage has occurred.

I have never verified it, but the DC output of the regulator should not have any AC component to it, and your measurement of 66 vac relative to ground at that point is another indicator of internal regulator failure.

Your new meter will also measure AC amps, so if you clamp over just one of the two wires coming from the alternator you can see how much AC current is coming from the alternator. That may be the source of the power generating all this heat.

Thanks for providing the measurements you cited above -- we are getting a more complete picture.

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Chuck,
I'm afraid to put the newest regulator to the original alternator fearing it'll burn it up too.
As far as verifying AC voltage from the alternator, I'm pretty sure it's measured correctly at 49ish with the new meter.
Hopefully my new alternator will arrive soon and I'll put it to the newest regulator and feel for it warming up before and after attaching the red wire.
I know we've talked about adding a relay, the key switch, etc. but nothing is getting hot or a problem except the regulator itself getting so hot it melts the back coating.
I guess the one question I haven't figured out is are the two leads from the alternator interchangeable? I've tried switching them both ways...it doesn't matter....
 

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Jerry,

Yes, the alternator wires are interchangeable as to position on the two terminal lugs -- no polarity there.

Still wonder how much AC CURRENT (as measured with your new clamp on meter in AC mode...) is being supplied by your old alternator into your old regulator -- if the power generated it is well above the DC output amperage of the regulator, that would help explain the heating if it is being dissipated by a failed circuit inside the regulator...

We all would like to know the present issues fully to be able to put new components in place without worry...

The overcharging/battery boiling issues that are addressed by the added relay do not appear to be your present issues, so no rush deciding on that now. A worn key switch also can contribute to that overcharge issue so that is why it was brought up much earlier in this thread...again not a factor in the hot regulator symptoms from the measurements you have provided to date.

Chuck
 
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