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Discussion Starter · #381 ·
@SuperSherman44 Any and all info is welcome. All to better understand (read reverse engineer ) these way too cool machines.

Another thought I had this morning too (NOT going down this route right now, but easy enough to check if it came to it). When I checked static injection timing, it was 8* BTDC, and the shim thickness was 0.020." The factory spec is 0.020" shims and 13* BTDC. Presumably the roller followers were way worn down. The book says to install the new or repaired injection pump with 0.020" shim thickness (adjust to taste) for 13* BDTC. When I tried this, it was at 15* BTDC. I settled on 0.025" to get just about 13*. Maybe she needs more advance. Doesn't seem right, maybe just weird.

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I'll check my throttle response next time I have it out, probably next week.
How are you getting the egt temps?
Pyrometer in manifold?
I forgot to take a reading there yesterday.
Additional note to yesterday, it looks like I used a lot of fuel yesterday. Darn close to double, compared to just the deck.
The followers you mention, your meaning the cam inside the pump, correct. Usually the lobe will wear down, but that doesnt change the when it happens. Meaning no timing change.
What it will affect is the amount and pressure of fuel. I would think the gear drive backlash in the front cover is what the shims are to correct for.

The ctm3 appears to only be a guide, after what I've read. I'd like more info, but it always says to take the pump to a service center for repair. I want the info there using to set the pump up, or rebuild. Or, I havent read the correct section yet.

Anyway, your tractor is running, keep after the issue, you'll get it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #383 ·
I did take EGTs. Included in the plots. Temp taken 2 inches deep into the tip of the muffler.

I thought the shims were for the gear train too. Until I took the pump off. The shims are underneath the pump housing. The more shims you have, the further away the pump is from the cam lobes, and so the more retard the timing (lobe strokes the pump later). Fewer shims is the opposite. There are also shims of some kind in the gear train if I remember correctly (and gear backlash specs), but I have never had that appart. My logic was that with worn followers, they would sit further away from the cam lobes, making it artificially retard timeing. Using the same thickness of shims on the new pump was way more advance, indicating to me that the cam was OK, otherwise the timing should have been similar. This logic goes out the window if the new pump is different from the old one(distance from where the pump sits to the bottom of the followers), but there's no real way to tell (as I did not have both in my hand at the same time). Either way. Whether using the same pump or a new one, the instructions said 13* and start with 20 thou. I figured 13* was more important than the 20 thou shims.

I have the Yanmar manual for rebuilding the injection pump if you'd like to browse through it. You need test equipment to actually do it. It's otherwise measure this, measure that, shim this, replace that, ect... Assuming a Yanmar certified place can easily aquire part numbers and such for the pump guts as needed.

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Do you know if the injector pump is metering fuel correctly? And whether it has been turned up to deliver more fuel? I read that turning up the fuel delivery at the pump can raise the operating temp...just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #385 ·
I have no control of the pump itself. At the mercy of the shop that rebuilt it. I have the fuel control rack adjusted or the book though. The a little alignment mark to line up.

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knockknock, I just ran the 430 at operating temp, here’s what I found: Thermostast housing 190F, Upper part of radiator 150F, Radiator itself 112F, Coolant recovery tank (where the radiator cap is) 185F. Hope this helps!👍
 

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Discussion Starter · #387 ·
So what I'm understanding, is that at full chooch, 100F outside ought to not be a problem; if everyone's measuring technique is good. Which, even if it isn't, it's certainly consistent. And I have no reason not to believe it plus or minus 10 degrees and still be good. 185F water temp is at the end of thermostatically controlled with huge cooling margin still. There is some kind of problem still.

So why is oil temp so high? If you look at my plot above in post 371, you can see oil temp headed towards 235F with the mower and MCS on low, engine at full speed, with zero ground speed. Before that it's only headed someplace slightly lower (mower only). 240F being the "keep it under" according to the Yanmar engineering documents (also assuming conventional oil).

Also, notice how quickly the temperatures drop when the load goes away. At 47 minutes, I shut down the MCS and mower deck. In under 2 minutes, coolant goes from 200 down to 170 (thermostat half open). Oil temp goes down 10 degrees. Not trying to discredit anyone's measurements, just an interesting observation of behavior.

Another thing. Does anyone else have this interaction with the fuel shutoff solenoid? If engine speed it set to max, the fuel shutoff solenoid won't let go. I have not removed or inspected the governor yet on this one.


Assuming everyone runs with green coolant, pump diesel with no special additives. How does your firewall (below the radiator) insulation look? Mine has none at all, and I plan to add back next disassembly (or sooner?).

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So what I'm understanding, is that at full chooch, 100F outside ought to not be a problem; if everyone's measuring technique is good. Which, even if it isn't, it's certainly consistent. And I have no reason not to believe it plus or minus 10 degrees and still be good. 185F water temp is at the end of thermostatically controlled with huge cooling margin still. There is some kind of problem still.

So why is oil temp so high? If you look at my plot above in post 371, you can see oil temp headed towards 235F with the mower and MCS on low, engine at full speed, with zero ground speed. Before that it's only headed someplace slightly lower (mower only). 240F being the "keep it under" according to the Yanmar engineering documents (also assuming conventional oil).

Also, notice how quickly the temperatures drop when the load goes away. At 47 minutes, I shut down the MCS and mower deck. In under 2 minutes, coolant goes from 200 down to 170 (thermostat half open). Oil temp goes down 10 degrees. Not trying to discredit anyone's measurements, just an interesting observation of behavior.

Another thing. Does anyone else have this interaction with the fuel shutoff solenoid? If engine speed it set to max, the fuel shutoff solenoid won't let go. I have not removed or inspected the governor yet on this one.


Assuming everyone runs with green coolant, pump diesel with no special additives. How does your firewall (below the radiator) insulation look? Mine has none at all, and I plan to add back next disassembly (or sooner?).

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Well for firewall, I have none left. As for the quick coolant cool down, I did notice that. That’s why the second I shut off the tractor, I took the temp readings. I’ll check my fuel solenoid shutoff to see if it does that
 
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Going back to your post where you calculated hp of various loads, assuming textbook case, I agree with your assumption that you are right on the edge of the rated 16hp. If by chance you have extra drag on your brakes, mower deck spindles, idler pulleys, or the MCS blower wheel or drive pulleys or maybe a pto, it's possible the loads are pulling a little more than the 16 hp calculated. If so, your engine will call for more fuel to maintain output BUT if your fuel system is set correctly, the fuel rack should not give it more fuel and the engine should not be developing more than the rated 16 hp +/- any published tolerances. Your cooling system was designed to dissipate a rated amount of BTU heat energy at a certain ambient temp. If your engine is delivering 18 hp for example, the cooling system cannot keep up and temps will rise.
In the old days before the sophisticated on board computer systems of today, if an on-highway truck engine was experiencing performance issues, a dealer put it on a dynomometer and did a performance analysis. (Some still do this.) Knowing exact hp output, they can also measure other parameters including fuel and compare to factory test cell specs.

Based on the info you provided that the injection pump, injectors and timing are all set correctly, in my opinion, if you load up the engine to the 16hp as you calculated and if you have flow meters installed, you should be able to "simulate" a dyno test to tell if your engine is using the amount of fuel to produce 16 hp or if it is actually using more fuel and producing something more than 16 hp and that is why you are seeing the high temps. You may need some fairly accurate flowmeters to get a good analysis. For example, fuel temp can affect accuracy. Also, I'm not sure of the effect of bio-diesel on BTU/gallon measurements vs. straight #2 diesel. Anyone have any ideas on this?

Edit-
If you can't find flow meters, there is probably a way to use a temporary fuel tank and weigh it before and after running and convert the weight difference to volume of fuel used but that might be a lot more difficult.

That black smoke you were seeing could be excess unburned fuel from lack of air from plugged filters or maybe just not enough intake air available for the amount of fuel getting into the engine.
 

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I lean toward it having higher fuel delivery than spec...unless full history is known, POs do odd things to our machines without the analysis expertise he is using. Worth a look.
 

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Discussion Starter · #391 ·
@Mike_U Post 352 is where I determined full load. 29.5LPM, 6C dT across the radiator, 3.718kJ/Kg*K. Comes out to 11.48kW, which is 15.4HP. I'm reasonably confident in that. I know all the bearings in the implements are all new in the past few years and spin nice and smooth (I've replaced everything). Brakes I have adjusted as well.

I'll check again when I get new air filters to see if there is any difference. After that, I will turn down the fuel an 8th turn and see how it reacts. Still bothered as to why it bogged down, which before it did NOT (part of the reason I performed the engine swap in the first place). It didn't bog down even during this time last year when the overheating first surfaced. There's a certain part of the lawn where it gets kinda steep for about the length of the tractor. Just enough to get it to load up nicely (and previously just puff a small bit of smoke, and retain engine RPM).

@tmac58star I'd say the same if the fuel injectors and injection pump were not already serviced by my local shop (injectors in 2019, pump replaced with rebuilt one this summer). I have adjusted the fueling to the adjustment line on the fuel rack, and the injection timing to 13* BTDC per the book. Lift pump output is well above spec for both fuel flow, and pressure.

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So let me see if I have this right.... The engine block and radiator are now clean and the engine has a new water pump and thermostat. The injectors have been checked/tested, the injection pump is rebuilt and set to the correct start of injection, with the governor linkage set properly for manufacturers advertised rated delivery. Testing and calculated results from the various graphs suggest that in certain conditions you are at or near the full engine load, and at/near full capacity of the cooling system, but have not currently reached the point of where the coolant light comes on (which was the original problem as I recall). From the videos supplied, the tractor has a Material Collection System installed that results in additional system load occurring when set to the various speeds, which should be considered normal (at least to me). The tractor is not only equipped with a MCS, but a set of full front weights and bracket, front and rear wheel weights for (as stated above): "There's a certain part of the lawn where it gets kinda steep for about the length of the tractor."

Although you might not like the answer, if the above analysis is correct, then it would appear you are at the design limit of tractor capacity for your application.
 

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Discussion Starter · #393 ·
@332 Guy You nailed it. And I have definitely considered that. But I still felt like the coolant temp shouldn't have been so high on such a low ambient temperature day. 200F coolant when it's 72F outside, with zero ground speed (post 371), is entirely independent of pulling grades or having weights. Before the overheating, it never bogged, and would only puff a little smoke when going up the hill with the MCS. Other's testing tends to agree. I'm expecting maybe 10F cooler coolant is what I'm trying to say. I can remove all the weights and see what mowing does for temps if I needed to, but as I said, it didn't have a problem before.

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Sun was shining but was pretty cool. Little hotter with both the radiator housing and coolant recover tank reading 200F. With the upper radiator reading 120F (somewhere around there) and actual radiator 113F. Hope this helps, and I’ll keep on reading the temps
 

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Also noticed that there were a few drops of coolant coming out the hose that connects near the cap (overflow hose?). I’ve noticed it before. Is that normal? Good coolant level
 

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Discussion Starter · #396 ·
@SuperSherman44 that's a 430 right? Different in several ways, but interesting nonetheless. I'd be interested in the temp on the oil filter fter rolling around an hour of mowing ect...

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@SuperSherman44 that's a 430 right? Different in several ways, but interesting nonetheless. I'd be interested in the temp on the oil filter fter rolling around an hour of mowing ect...

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Yes it’s a 430. I Just took the oil filter temp, even though it’s been off for ~10-15 minutes. 137F
 

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Discussion Starter · #398 ·
Those with 332s or 322s.....how is your foam sealing at the rear part of the hood? The area that is above the radiator, around the sides and by the latch. And how is the foam on the firewall? With engine running at full RPM and hood closed, are there any hot air leaks out of the hood near the radiator? You'll know if there are just by feeling around. Mine has a warm air leak on the right, but not the left.

As I'm looking at data, I realized that some tests have considerably hotter radiator air inlet temperature than others.
 

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The foam on the hood on mine isnt there, plus I dont latch the hood down.
The foam on the lower panel under rad looks to be there, a little oil soaked though.

I bought a photo tach yesterday, I was a little short on rpm at full throttle. Adjusted that up, I'm at 3220 - 3240 at full throttle now.
This morning I turned the smoke screw some. Itll blow a little smoke now going to full throttle from half quickly.
Engine rpm response follows throttle very closely.
I have half the yard to mow yet today. I'll check my rad temps, see if it increases in temp at all.
But, it's only 66* here, a lot cooler than last week when it was 90*. I'll run the mcs at 3/4 speed also.
 
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Discussion Starter · #400 ·
Thanks Skwirl. Having the hood not latched definitely makes a big difference in coolant temp I've found too.

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