Weekend Freedom Machines banner

141 - 160 of 167 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,229 Posts
My apologies for not looking back through this thread to see if it was covered, but what antifreeze are you running? I ask since the higher the antifreeze ratio, the lower the cooling properties. (Lower the freeze point, the lower the cooling capabilities)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #142
Coolgard-II 50/50 ratio. The Deere yellow stuff. It looks to me like there might be a crack around the solder joint. The yellow crud looks like dried coolant to me around said crack. It holds pressure though. So I wonder if it expands once it gets to a certain temperature.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: MiniHomesteader

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Dumb question. I see that the anti-collapse spring in the coolant hose was broken in one of your pics. Did you replace this when you put new pump in?

Is it possible that another piece shed off and jammed up the impeller?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
I've posted this in another thread but some more data for you.

When I restored my 332 I put in a new radiator and a new water pump (as well as new hoses). I also had the block and head hot tank cleaned at piece part. This is about as close to a new cooling system as possible I think.

With this setup I commonly mow in 90+ degree heat in the summer for 1-2 hours.

I have installed a water temp gauge in place of the dummy light which allows me to monitor actual coolant temps.

On those hot days the coolant temp will only go above 190 IF the dash tower screens or the radiator screen gets plugged. Occasionally I stop and blow them off and the temp will promptly drop back to ~180.

I've never seen it over 200.

You're doing good work diagnosing this one....don't give up! You'll figure it out.

-Andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #145
Thanks Andy. There was just a little piece of the spring that was broken at the end. 95% or more of the spring was in tact and still good. I did not replace it.

I have a thermocouple in place of the dummy light now for accurate measurement too. Yesterday it was about 75F out. With the hood closed and side covers on, I got the coolant up to 223F. So I opened the hood and kept going. The temperature stabilized at 199F. I then removed the left hand side cover, closed the hood and kept going. It got up to 223F again. I let it cool a few minutes, then took the right side cover off (now both removed, hood closed). Temp got up to 217F. I ran out of leaves at this point and stopped. I am convinced that the sound deadening is not affecting temperature at all.

I'm going to remove the radiator tonight, and take it back to the shop to have them fix the leak at the inlet.

Also, one or 2 of my delivery valve fittings is leaking still, so I'll pull that back appart again and replace the o rings and seals to see if that fixes it. I've already replaced all 3 once due to leaking.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
Aaron, back in post #124 you mentioned that the engine oil was sent for analysis, did you the results yet?
Sorry, if you posted it already and I missed it.
On a side note, my 332 on a hot 90+ day last summer got the "temp light" on after about 1 hr of mowing. I turned it off, let it cooled down to drive it back to shed. I tried again the following week (still 90+ weather), and the same happened.
So I bought a "flush kit" at autozone and followed the directions to the T, I then used the premixed JD antifreeze, so far so good, but then again we have not had those temps since then. We'll see what happens next year.
I'm keeping an eye on this post, hopefully you find your problem soon. Good luck!

Henry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #147
No prob Henry. I did receive results back on analysis, and they said there was no water present, and no indications of other contaminates that would indicate a head gasket leak. I did also try the AutoZone flush exactly as prescribed.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #148
I got the crack fixed on the radiator. I ran today for 45 minutes sucking up leaves. It was 60F out, and the hottest the coolant got to was 201F. That's still hotter than I'd have expected given the ambient, but it didn't burp any coolant. Last time I ran at this ambient it got up to 212F, it did burp a little coolant into the overflow, AND that's also when I noticed the leak. Marked improvement, but not entirely sure it's "fixed." Extrapolating to higher ambient temperature, that'd be the light coming on for overheat at 82F outside. Still think there's a problem, but given that, I'd be willing to bet I never overheat in the summer as long as I'm not using the MCS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #150
It does not have an engine oil cooler, though it has occurred to me as a side project to add one maybe. At this point, I just want to be sure there are no more issues beyond what was the radiator crack. Yesterday's performance tells me I won't have any problems throughout the winter or spring cleanup. I remove the MCS during the summer months as I don't need to collect the grass. However, given the temperatures I read yesterday, It ought to overheat in summer with the MCS, so I feel like there still may be an issue.

For the record, I have been keeping track of the engine oil temperature with a thermocouple on the end of the dip stick. Yesterday it was 246F by the time I was done. Which is the same as I was recording before. It takes a while to get up to that temp, but it stabilizes there and doesn't go any higher.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
That's pretty high for an oil temp actually. Ideally it should be about 15° cooler. The oil system is the second cooling system in an engine. Keeping the oil temp down in the 215 - 225 range should be a goal. That's hot enough to evap moisture but not hot enough to break down the dino juice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #152
You're right it's high, but I wouldn't call it unreasonable for a fully loaded up engine. Rotella T6 is rated for 300F before serious breakdown begins. That being said, it makes me think there is an underlying issue still causing it to be higher than it should be. I think I'll re-adjust the fuel screw back to standard and retest. It's only a quarter turn higher than it's supposed to be at most, so I don't think that'd be a big deal, but it can't hurt to check!

Also, I forgot...the temperature into the radiator was 201F last night, and the radiator outlet was 189F. Thought there would be more temperature drop than that. Temperature across the air side of the radiator was 60F-151F.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
A quarter turn sounds like a massive amount of extra fuel! When the Deere mechanics told me how to adjust my Roosa master fuel pump on my Oliver they told me to not exceed one flat on the nut because that would over-fuel the engine. Maybe that little engine is more tolerant? I'm no expert that's certain...But I decided to not mess with the fuel delivery anyway, I have more than enough HP in my Oliver for what I use it for. Different fuel pumps, different adjustment parameters.

Are you running the engine on the governor all the time? You said fully loaded?

If you blow black smoke you are wasting fuel anyway. There's only so much air that get into a naturally aspirated engine. Regardless, my guess is that extra fuel would not cause an overheat condition, just the opposite actually. Rich conditions in a gas engine usually cause a cooler running engine but with more cylinder wall wear due to washing. I'm not certain that's true with diesels.

Just pondering out loud here....maybe the extra fuel will create extra cylinder pressures and consequently more heat that the cooling system is not equipped to dissipate. I think technically the vast majority of heat that a diesel makes goes out through the exhaust system or at least should. Just regurgitating what I've been lead to believe my entire 45 year career of driving diesel equipped equipment and big trucks; not actually working on any diesel fuel systems through beyond routine maintenance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #154
As I understand it, though I am far from an expert....people allegedly get into trouble at the 1-2 full turn mark...or so I've read. So I didn't feel bad about doing it at the time. But, as a completionist, I turned it back down this morning. It only would puff a little bit of smoke going up a steep hill with the MCS going on rabbit speed. On to that in a minute*

Have not touched the governor. Engine speed is where it ought to be, 3200RPM with the load of the mower and MCS, engine speed control on rabbit.

Diesel is different from gas, I will leave it at that. I have no way of measuring AFR, so to the point, it isn't wise to turn up the fuel from factory settings. NA engine and all that as you said definitely all valid.

SOOOOOO! The numbers today!

196F after 30 minutes, 66F outside, 243F engine oil (measured at the end of the dip -tick). I normalized all my data to 86F. With the caveat that as a general rule, it is OK to correct for ambient up to 18F (roughly...I use this regularly in my line of work with a asterisk next to it). I picked 86F because it is 30C, and I know that to be a special number in the automotive world (at least it used to be, it has since gone up to 38C, or 100F).

Normalizing the data to 86F (hot day example):
Pre radiator crack fix - max theoretical temp is >235F (I stopped mowing during this particular test so that it would not overheat. The temperature was still rising)
After radiator crack fix - max theoretical temp is 228F (I mowed until the temp stopped increasing)
Turning down the fuel - max theoretical temp is 216F (I mowed until the temp stopped increasing)

The combination of turning up the fuel and the crack in the radiator I believe are the culprits. Since we're out of weather, I will retire this until the spring time. At which point, I will plug in a laptop and record temperature vs time of all of my 8 thermocouples to see if the temperature is truly stabilized after mowing 30+ minutes. Should be fun :)

Thank you all for your help, support, and recommendations. This has been exciting, despite what it may sound like. I've been wanting to thermocouple the tractor for a couple years now. I love getting me some data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Theoretically a rich diesel should run cooler.
But, as it was explained to me many years ago.
Extra fuel can cause smoke out the exhaust.
Over fueled actually runs lean. Theres so much fuel it cant be burned when it needs to be.
That's important.
Doesnt make power, doesnt smoke black either.
Just causes an overheat.

I was only taught about the injectors on the mechanical pumps. The injectors had to pop off at 3300 or 3500 psi. The pump didnt do anything but pump fuel.
Yes, you can " turn the pump up " but that causes more problems than it increases power.
Unless you have the engine on a dyno, then you can measure your output versus exhaust temps using a pyrometer. Pistons dont like temps over 12 or 1300 degrees.

Knockknock, you never mentioned before turning the fuel screw up.
That's a big red flag.

But, it's your tractor, damage it however you like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
Theoretically a rich diesel should run cooler.
But, as it was explained to me many years ago.
Extra fuel can cause smoke out the exhaust.
Over fueled actually runs lean. Theres so much fuel it cant be burned when it needs to be.
That's important.
Doesnt make power, doesnt smoke black either.
Just causes an overheat.

I was only taught about the injectors on the mechanical pumps. The injectors had to pop off at 3300 or 3500 psi. The pump didnt do anything but pump fuel.
Yes, you can " turn the pump up " but that causes more problems than it increases power.
Unless you have the engine on a dyno, then you can measure your output versus exhaust temps using a pyrometer. Pistons dont like temps over 12 or 1300 degrees.

Knockknock, you never mentioned before turning the fuel screw up.
That's a big red flag.

But, it's your tractor, damage it however you like.
That's true, but the pump in some cases also pressurize the fuel to up to the pressures you specified. Many or maybe even most engines mechanical engines have a two fuel pumps. The regular pump moves the fuel to the rotary injector pump. The only style of injector pump I'm actually familiar with. The rotary injector pump pressurizes each individual line as necessary to squirt fuel. I'm not familiar with one but there was at least one other style of mechanical injector pump and that was a rail and cam setup.

Once diesels moved to electronic controls that type of pump was replaced with a common rail pump which pumped at a much lower pressure and each injector was controlled by a solenoid instead of a check valve.

I have no idea which was used on a 332 engine. Adjusting the fuel pressure screw on the mechanical rotary injector pump required minute changes for big changes in fuel delivery the way I understood it.

You are correct in that the mechanics strongly suggest not fiddling with fuel delivery without being on a dyno and checking if all is good at full load. FWIW, comparing apples to oranges is that my tractor was put on a dyno a few days after I got it back in the tractor after an extensive, and expensive, total engine rebuild (shade tree racers I knew used to call it balanced and blueprinted). It put out two+ horsepower more than the test horsepower it had when factory new. That made an 86 factory HP a nearly 89 HP tractor. It's possible to get nearly 100hp out of this engine, some claim even higher.

When the governor was necessary it would leave a nice trail of medium dark smoke until the load let up. It's naturally aspirated so there was no over-pressurizing the cylinders or burning the oil in a turbo. I've never seen the exhaust glow red but I have seen it also leave a trail of fireworks out the exhaust after dark under a heavy load. You can't see them during the day.

knockknock332, As for using RotellaT6...never used it. I'm still stuck in the Dino juice world.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
I must have missed the part where you said you turned up the fuel - that's your smoking gun right there. More fuel burned means more heat, and for a cooling system that is known to not have a lot of contingency, you're pushing right up to the boundary.
I think we could have solved this a long time ago : )
All that said, if you did want to burn more fuel, you could increase the cooling system capacity, but only to a point because it also relies on the ability of the engine block and cylinder head to reject the heat into the coolant. But that point would be quite a lot higher than where the fueling is currently set. Testing would show where that point is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #159
I had 2 reasons for turning up the juice a little bit (?):

1) All my reading on the forums seemed to lead me to believe a little bit (less than 2 turns) wouldn't hurt (I had turned it up between an eighth and a quarter turn). While this may be true for normal use (just mowing, riding around towing a trailer, plowing snow, not very stressful loads)...when it's loaded heavily (running the MCS, a tiller, ect...), that's where the problem occurs. Think of cranking the max boost up on my diesel Cruze from 32psi to 100psi. It'll be fine 99% of the time, because regular driving doesn't use max power. But smash the pedal and let it eat....you'll have problems in a hurry. I say the same kind of thing to people who supe up whatever kind of car cheaply and say "I have 500hp." To which I say...."For how many miles?" Should have followed my own advice!

2) I had done the same thing on my previous 332 engine and never had a problem. In fact I had turned it up even more. Although, that engine had bad blow by when I bought it, so maybe that offset it some.

Lessons learned...

1) If you need more power, buy a bigger tractor.
2) If you need more power, buy a bigger tractor!
3) The thermostat spec is probably wrong.
4) Replacing the belt is annoying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
The problem with this here is that I suspect you don't know where it was set when you got it since it was a used engine?
 
141 - 160 of 167 Posts
Top