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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok so I have an older 420 with the glass type fuses that had the B48G in it over 2k hours engine blew up and I got it for $75.00. I have 2x 316 tractors both have the Onan P218G engines. I pulled the engine out of the running 316 to plant into the 317 as it is being used with my Johnson loader and 33 tiller with extensions. What I want is a dedicated tractor to run a loader and a 30 hydro tiller. The pump I have for the tiller is a belly mount pump so I'm not sure how I would make that work on the 420. The loader I want to put on the 420 is one I will remove from the Wheelhorse D250. It's a big loader so it should be right at home on the 420. That will be a dedicated loader / back hoe tracktor eventually if I ever get around to it but in the mean time. I also want a tiller tractor. Arg. So many issues to ponder. The 318 that has a good running engine has a cracked frame at the axle dogs on both sides and is leaking oil from the transmission like crazy. So the 318 is out for now. I think what I need to do it install the 318 onan in the 316 so I can use the hydro tiller then perhaps swap the onan from the 317 into the 420 later on.

Quick question: is there a way to mount the belly pump " belt driven " for the 30 hydro tiller on the 420 so that I can use both the tiller and loader on that one tractor.

The idea for the 317 loader is to eventually take the workhorse 12 loader off of the 317 and install in back onto a patio 140 H3. The loader is already white so I'm pretty sure that is what it was originally from. It was removed from a dead green '69 140 h3.
 

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Quick question: is there a way to mount the belly pump " belt driven " for the 30 hydro tiller on the 420 so that I can use both the tiller and loader on that one tractor.
The only way I see is to drive the tiller with a rear PTO drive setup and use the front PTO to drive the loader pump.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The only way I see is to drive the tiller with a rear PTO drive setup and use the front PTO to drive the loader pump.
Is there an adapter to take a belly pump to mount on the rear or would I need to fabricate a PTO shaft like on the 140 and early 300 series tractors to run the belly pump off of the rear output shaft?

Trying to figure out how that would work and or if there is even enough room for something like this.
 

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I'm sending a couple manuals via message. You'll see how they mount this way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Got them thank you and replied. Perhaps I should have replied here to keep the public informed ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
well I moved the 318 earlier and got to looking at the broken frame. It's not going to be easy to repair but I think it will be the easiest out of all the options considering I'd love to have power steering too.

Any one know of any threads where the frame was repaired at the axle mounting tabs on the frame?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Pics of the frame on bothe sides. Both sides were repaired. It looks like the left side held up better but cracks started forming in new places.

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Here is a couple pics of the transmission parting line where it was serviced as well and a couple pics of the leaking from underneith of it.

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Not sure the best way to repair this frame with out tearing the whole rear end apart so I can get a better look and grind away bad welds ect and bevel the plate to be welded back together really good or just redo the whole rear end. It seems like a lot of work considering how worn out and tattered this tractor really is. I mean the front power steering cylinder leaks, the front axle is sloppy loose and then there is the leak in the rear as well as the cracked frame. Decisions decisions decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Ok 316 it is for now. Pull 318 motor and place into the 316. The 316 frame is tight as is the steering, no cracks that I could observe so far. The 318 not only leaks from the transmission but from the steering ram as well so the ram needs to be rebuilt to? After I pull the motor I’ll go ahead and remove the motor tins and clean up the cooling fins and check the engine over for oil leaks then drop it in the 316 and install the 30 hydro tiller using the belly pump.

I’ll also have to pull all the tiller mounting hardware from the 318 and put on the 316 . It should only “I’m hoping” take me a couple of days to get the 316 all together with engine and tiller. Oh yeah tires need to be swapped over as well. Tires on the 316 are toast.

I think once I finish building up the 316 I’ll go and pull the transmission from the 318 and then clean the frame really good before attempting to make the frame repairs in the rear for the transmission mounts as well as up front where the power steering ram mounts to the frame. This 318 was beat on bad. Sorry no pics at this time, I was too focused on getting the yard organized to stage these two side by side for comparisons and easy swapping of the engine.

I have a 420 locking transmission I got on eBay a couple of years ago so I think that will go back into the 318 when it is ready for parts to start going back on. All in due time. For now it’s get a good tiller tractor going and the 316 will be the easiest way to go so that’s the plan.

I still want to get an angle blade installed and on the 54c center grader blade as well so that I can instal it on another tractor as well. That will come in handy when I go to start tilling and leveling my yard before reseeding it. I’ll try to remember to take some photos of the two tractors side by side “ 316 & 318 “ with progress pics as I go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Getting started. Moving the rear tiller hanger brackets first since it is the easiest atm. The 316 is the cleaner tractor on the left.

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Taking a beverage break while sitting in the shade. Got the tiller brackets and rear wheels swappes over.

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I would think the 316 would steer okay with the tiller hanging on the back.

I know on my 140 with tiller on it steers alot easier than when there is no tiller on it.
its you just have to be moving to turn the wheels so there is a little more planing on stuff instead of just easy cranking when your stopped to change your direction.

though I don't have a Tractor with Power Steering so I may be really missing out on how nice that is to have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
No doubt power steering makes life way easier with these toys. Think of going from two hands on the wheel to almost steering with your pinky finger. Add a loader full of earth and issues compound. Im not worried about steering the 316 with a tiller. Its all good. Sweating my but off atm working on beverage number i wont say :p

Just struggling to get this engine out with the drive shaft installed. Not much room to operate on the crankshaft bolts to the flywheel with the hydro cooler in the way. Saw a pic the other day with the motor being pulled with the drive line still attached to the flywheel so thats what im trying to duplicate ;) i just about got the engine out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Gotter free by hand, woo hoo. Ok sharing my yard, i work out at planet fitness home of judgement free zone. Please don't judge my junkyard. Its getting better and thinned out I promise.

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Engine is psi washed as good as i could get it for the day, it got dark fast so not enough light to see what i was doing. The tins will have to wait for tomorrow. I had an iv tank set up to get the 318 running and left it hooked up. So needless to say the oil level was way high. One quick sniff test confirmed gas in the oil. I'll change the oil and filter and clean the tins before reassembling it for installation in the 316.
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Interesting thread. (As most are) There are recent photos of a frame repair in another thread.


As you likely know, I'm in the process of rebuilding a 420. Took it right down to the frame. I had it blasted and then die penetrated to make sure no frame cracks. The differential case had a large hole in it so it didn't take any diagnostics to figure where that oil leak was. I'm totally blown away, (as the kids say) with how many of these frames and Peerless differential cases are damaged. Most beyond repair. For years I've stuck to and preferred 317's and have read all of the trashing comments about the bad engines, lack of power steering, etc. Well, I guess the sacred 318's have their issues also. I've found it is getting hard to find one without these conditions. (Parts wise)

Some of the things I've learned so far:

Deere made changes to the 420 forward mounts to help with the case cracking and leaking. They removed one of the large case bolts and installed a shoulder bolt in the left side to allow the case to float freely but still be supported. I'm really not sure exactly how the 318 mounts but being the same Peerless case, I would make sure that the same is done to any machine with the Peerless differential.

Those same front mount bolts often tear out the case destroying the side cover. You can replace just the side cover, (if you can find one) but care needs to be taken when aligning everything up. The case halves are dowelled during the original assembly. They may not align again with a different case and cover assembly. You should not use those dowels but drill and install new ones once the cases are aligned. In the case of my 420, I used a 318 case and converted it to a two-speed and locking axle. All was fine until I drove the dowels in which then made the shift shafts bind making it hard to operate. By loosening the case bolts and removing the original dowels, redrilling new dowels, it all freed up again. It shifts nicely now.

A note about the two-speed cases. A 318 case can be converted relatively easily if you have the proper tools. There are a few posts floating around of folks doing this but they leave out a few important things. The actual bosses for the shift shafts are easily drilled in the cover and aligned with the opposite in the case using a long 1/2" drill bit. The seal bosses however need to be counter-sunk to fit the shaft seals. Again, easy if you have the tools. But it will likely be best done at a machine shop. The check ball for the two-speed shaft is critical in drilling. Miss the hole and the case is junk. So put a lot of time and thought into that.

I can see where installing the 420 case in a 318 or similar may not be as easy as it looks. The case itself isn't an issue but the control linkages would be. For starters, the parts are likely rather hard to find. Mounting the brackets and spotting the holes correctly might pose a problem as there is nothing to go by. 318 and 420 frames are quite different. Drilling the large holes in the pan in the proper location may be a tough one too. One posting eliminated this issue by installing a solenoid to do the shifting. There was no follow-up as to how this worked out. I have the 420 down to the bare frame, all of the holes and brackets are there, and I will tell you it's a tough place to work. And all I have installed is the rear axle assembly. If you thinking of doing this mod I would do the same. Remove all the parts you can.

The steering column leaks are apparently becoming a regular thing as they age. So much so the kits are back-ordered. If your machine has the 4 port column you may want to change it over to the five-port especially if you're using any attachment that taps power off the hydro system. The purpose of the 5 port system is it gives priority to steering. Another thing Deere obviously knew was a shortcoming in 318's and later changed without a lot of mention. You can't steer and lift at the same time with a 4 port. (easily)

The frames. If you don't believe there is a difference in quality between the 317 and 318 frames (and 420's) just take a closer look. Not only the gauge of the metal is thinner, but the carbon content is also less making it softer steel. If you place the 317 and later Peerless tractors side by side looking at the rears, you will see a totally different mounting system of the axle. The hitch for one thing is mounted to the frame, not the three-piece axle. The 317 axle housings are integral to the frame. Welded solid. The differential is a hypnoid cut type vs, straight cut spur gears. I've often said I never heard of a frame or axle issue with 317's.

All things considered, IMHO, the 318/400's are weak in this area, especially if three-point hitches and heavy attachments are used. I can see where a person dragging a plow of any sort should expect these issues sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend hooking chains to the hitch and pulling stumps either.

Something positive about the 316 is they for some strange reason Deere used a totally different steering sector. A circulating ball type similar to automobiles versus the cheap Ross type in the 317's and earlier. With this type, I can't see power steering being much of an advantage.

Well, that's my rant for this week. But I hope the experience helps you out some. Sorry, it got so long.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Thank you joe (y)

I can concur the open frames are thinner and crack way too easy imo. They almost remind me of Chinese brittle metal bed frames :/. This 318 I am dealing with had the tiller and 3pth brackets installed when I acquired it. This leads me to believe this tractor was probably worked in a manner as you described and suggested against like pulling tree stumps, dragging 3pth attachments like plows and back blade etc. The furthest rear hole on trailer hitch plate has Been stretched wallowed out and practically ripped open which is a clear indication of abuse. I’m sure it was probably used as a tug as well. The frame repairs at the axle and power steering bracket to frame appears to have been repaired several times by an amateur welder :(

I purchased this 318 from a town north of Napa “wine country” in the hills west of Hwy 101. Lots of boulders and rocks can be found in the hilly soils on properties in that region as well as all over the mountainous regions of California just like with any mountain range area.

I was looking at the frame where the 2 speed knob would have to go on the 318 and can see that there is a bracket that spans across from one side rail to the other just under and outside the base of the pedestal which will need to be cut out to make a slot for the speed selector.

I’m not sure if I’ll strip this 318 down to a bare frame this time around. I have never done a full restore on any of my tractors “ I know big shocker “ but would like to one day with a couple of the 140’s I have. I think the 140’s have the look or the it factor when it comes to the right look and transition from manual to hydro transmission garden tractors. Very classy classic tractors imo. I just wish they were round fenders. Now I might never get around to doing a full restore on any of the tractors I use on a regular basis but I’m still relatively young yet, turning 50 this year so I might still have some time left to get a restore or two done. 140’s are at the top of the list when it comes to doing a full frame off restoration.

I got the manual for mounting the tiller pump on the rear of the 420 and it would require more money and the correct rear PTO. I have sunk more money into all these than I’d like to admit and I think it is time to start thinning out the Hurd and attachments. For example I have 3x 3pht for the early close frame tractors 3x 33 tillers 4x 54” 4 way blades etc. So I have been considering selling things like that to fund other options like a rear pto and other Open frame attachments like 3pth etc.

Ideally I would like to have a locking rear on a closed frame like the 317 but I’m not about to weld the spider gears together in the diff or put a lunchbox locker in even if they are available. With enough research though and determination just about any mod is possible I.E. axle swap to a selectable locker from a Jeep etc. but when push comes to shove at what cost is it no longer worth it with it being a big time sink as well as money pit that I probably would never be able to recover. At the end of the day this is still just a hobby to pass the time. I keep telling my self if and when I ever get a bigger rural property I’ll have all the gear I need to maintain it properly. I’m afraid I’d just fall into the category of there is always a bigger better tool for the job.

I can be a windbag too at times going off on a tangent about this or that. Thanks for dropping in and sharing your wisdom about your experience with the open vs closed frame tractors and complications regarding the tecumseh cases between different models. I need to take a breather from everything soon and start going through threads like your 420 etc to see what I’m am missing out on learning.

Oh yeah, the very first time I drove the 316 I could not believe how much better the steering felt vs the way the 317 steers.

Ok off to get started on the 316 again :)
 

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Thank you joe (y)

I can concur the open frames are thinner and crack way too easy imo. They almost remind me of Chinese brittle metal bed frames :/. This 318 I am dealing with had the tiller and 3pth brackets installed when I acquired it. This leads me to believe this tractor was probably worked in a manner as you described and suggested against like pulling tree stumps, dragging 3pth attachments like plows and back blade etc. The furthest rear hole on trailer hitch plate has Been stretched wallowed out and practically ripped open which is a clear indication of abuse. I’m sure it was probably used as a tug as well. The frame repairs at the axle and power steering bracket to frame appears to have been repaired several times by an amateur welder :(

I purchased this 318 from a town north of Napa “wine country” in the hills west of Hwy 101. Lots of boulders and rocks can be found in the hilly soils on properties in that region as well as all over the mountainous regions of California just like with any mountain range area.

I was looking at the frame where the 2 speed knob would have to go on the 318 and can see that there is a bracket that spans across from one side rail to the other just under and outside the base of the pedestal which will need to be cut out to make a slot for the speed selector.

I’m not sure if I’ll strip this 318 down to a bare frame this time around. I have never done a full restore on any of my tractors “ I know big shocker “ but would like to one day with a couple of the 140’s I have. I think the 140’s have the look or the it factor when it comes to the right look and transition from manual to hydro transmission garden tractors. Very classy classic tractors imo. I just wish they were round fenders. Now I might never get around to doing a full restore on any of the tractors I use on a regular basis but I’m still relatively young yet, turning 50 this year so I might still have some time left to get a restore or two done. 140’s are at the top of the list when it comes to doing a full frame off restoration.

I got the manual for mounting the tiller pump on the rear of the 420 and it would require more money and the correct rear PTO. I have sunk more money into all these than I’d like to admit and I think it is time to start thinning out the Hurd and attachments. For example I have 3x 3pht for the early close frame tractors 3x 33 tillers 4x 54” 4 way blades etc. So I have been considering selling things like that to fund other options like a rear pto and other Open frame attachments like 3pth etc.

Ideally I would like to have a locking rear on a closed frame like the 317 but I’m not about to weld the spider gears together in the diff or put a lunchbox locker in even if they are available. With enough research though and determination just about any mod is possible I.E. axle swap to a selectable locker from a Jeep etc. but when push comes to shove at what cost is it no longer worth it with it being a big time sink as well as money pit that I probably would never be able to recover. At the end of the day this is still just a hobby to pass the time. I keep telling my self if and when I ever get a bigger rural property I’ll have all the gear I need to maintain it properly. I’m afraid I’d just fall into the category of there is always a bigger better tool for the job.

I can be a windbag too at times going off on a tangent about this or that. Thanks for dropping in and sharing your wisdom about your experience with the open vs closed frame tractors and complications regarding the tecumseh cases between different models. I need to take a breather from everything soon and start going through threads like your 420 etc to see what I’m am missing out on learning.

Oh yeah, the very first time I drove the 316 I could not believe how much better the steering felt vs the way the 317 steers.

Ok off to get started on the 316 again :)
I took the time today to take a few photos and measurements in case you decide to go ahead with the 420 axle conversion in your 318. If you think they will help, PM me, and I'll shoot them to you as soon as I get them on my computer. Nothing exact, but it would give you a good idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Most definitely, PM sent! :)
 
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