[flymo]

I've picked up an electrical gremlin in my 455.

Over the last several weeks, it will occasionally not start, with the symptoms being identical to what I'd expect with a weak battery - dash lights come on, glow plug light goes off, turn key to start and it cranks over weakly, sometimes gets one cylinder to fire and a puff of smoke, but no go. It will do this for a few tries. I leave it sit for a while and come back, and it starts just like normal. I did try jumping it when it was in the slow crank / no start condition, and it did not make any difference.

Other times, it starts normally with no problems at all.

What I've done so far:

- cleaned the battery connections
- took the battery back to the store and had it tested, and it was fine
- cleaned the positive connection at the starter solenoid

Any thoughts / hints would be appreciated.

Tim

 

[bobstillwagon]

Tim, did you check/clean the ground connections, where the other end of the battery negative cable attaches? Not sure it probably goes to the engine block, haven't looked at mine. If not directly to the engine then there will be another ground wire from the engine to the frame that might also be the culprit.

 

[flymo]

Thanks Bob - I did think of that, will probably try tonight. That connection is under the front left of the block, and the engine mount is in the way - bit of a pain to get to. I also want to understand how juice gets from the + terminal on the starter solenoid to the starter motor itself, since the solenoid is apparently kicking in fine, but the motor is not turning well.

Tim

 

[flymo]

Well, finally got a chance to do some diagnosis this weekend, starting with TM1517's Cranking Circuit Diagnosis page. I didn't follow it exactly - I got to where you test the starter relay circuit, but tested it with the wire unhooked from the solenoid. I had a consistent 11.58V there when cranking the starter, so per TM1517 that points to a bad starter or solenoid. However, since this is an intermittent problem, it's possible that it just wasn't happening while I was testing, so I taped the voltmeter to that connection and I'll keep it in place for a while and see if I can make the problem happen.

It's interesting that TM1517 explicitly calls out looking for low voltage on that cranking circuit - not sure quite why that would be, because with the start relay closed, current is flowing pretty directly, albeit via a fairly long path from the starter, through the ignition switch, and then the start relay. But the symptoms I have of just cranking over briefly and then stopping are, I believe, consistent with low voltage getting to the starter solenoid. Basically, I am thinking that with low voltage, as long as both the solenoid's pull-in coil and hold-in coil are working there's enough to overcome the spring in the relay, but once it closes and the pull-in coil drops off, there's not enough to keep it closed.

Along the way, it did take a wire brush to the connector from the starter relay circuit to the solenoid. It was not horrible, but not bright and shiny either, so that could have been the entire problem.

Could have been a bad solenoid, too, of course - does anyone know how I might test that?

Tim

 

[fred_bridgehouse]

Tim, a voltage drop test might reveal the loss. Hook one lead of the volt meter to one end of the suspect circuit and the other lead to the other end of the circuit. Energize the circuit and read the voltage on the meter. Any reading of voltage is the "drop" across that circuit. If it's significant, check the connections first, then the wire. Less than one (1) volt drop is preferred.

 

[flymo]

Thanks Fred! The total drop is from about 12.7 at the battery to that 11.58 volts at terminal S of the solenoid. The spec, per TM1517, is > 10 volts at terminal S, so I've got a fair amount of margin. I have the meter taped in place now so can't check it, but maybe when I figure out this problem I'll go back and check the drop at different points in the circuit.

Tim

 

[fred_bridgehouse]

I think you're on the right circuit. It may just be a combination of losses in all those plugins....those connectors leave something to be desired for sure. The less connectors and the tighter they fit together, the less voltage drop.

 

[flymo]

Well, I've started up about 6 times with the voltmeter connected - started without a hitch every time. At this point I am figuring it was the connection from the starter relay circuit to the solenoid, but I am going to keep the meter in place a bit longer.

It's a 30 second job to unplug and clean that connection, so I would recommend doing so if you have a 455 - can't hurt!

Tim

 

[jdjake49]

TimS,

It sounds like a starter/solenoid problem to me.

Since the engine will turn over, the start relay is doing it's job. The battery is good, so there is either a voltage drop from the battery to the starter or solenoid is bad. The solenoid is just a large relay. If the contacts are pitted/bad, the flow of current can be affected. There may also be a partial short in the starter winding.

The next time you have this problem, connect a jumper to the S terminal of the solenoid and then touch the other end to the + side of the battery. If the problem continues, the problem is the starter solenoid.

An aftermarket starter is about $100.

George of Buford

 

[flymo]

Thanks George - I have it down to either a voltage drop in the start relay circuit, or a bad solenoid. I am leaving the meter installed, and I turn it on every time I start up; if I get a recurrence of the no start, I'll be able to see if the S terminal is getting enough voltage. If yes, it's the solenoid, if no, somewhere in the start circuit and I can backtrack.

So far, no recurrences since I cleaned the connection at the S terminal, so that may have been it.

Tim

 

[flymo]

Well, after a month of no problems, I had a temporary issue over the weekend, with symptoms a bit different than I had before. Friday night, I was doing some loader work, which involved stopping and starting a fair amount. After quite a few cycles, with the work almost done, I went to start the tractor, and got that nasty grinding sound you get when the starter doesn't completely engage the flywheel teeth. It repeated the second time I tried to start, but on the third attempt, it started with no problems. Unfortunately, I did not think to turn the meter back on in the heat of the moment. I finished the job without shutting down and restarting, and parked the tractor in the shed until Sunday.

Sunday, I was sweating it out, because working on the starter with the loader on there would be difficult, if not impossible, but the tractor started up just fine, and I completed the loader work I needed to do, and took the loader off so I could get at the starter. I then completed the hand work of smoothing the loam I had distributed, and used the tractor to pack it down - 3 or 4 additional starts, with no problems.

So at this point, it's sounding like either a bad solenoid, or a bad starter. The solenoid goes for $123, a remanufactured starter goes for $352. I'm not sure which way to go.

Tim

 

[jdmaninlouky]

That sounds like the starter bendix gear is worn , or fly wheel teeth may have a bad spot . My little Mitsubishi truck has done that on occasions , for the ten years I've owned it . And will not be in the least worried about it unless it starts getting more and more frequent .

Have you taken the little spring from the tractor seat base , so that you can jump off tractor and it will stay running (with-out setting the parking brake each time) if you need to egress often ? Please no safety hate mail folks ..., mine was removed when I got it . And with the loader resting on ground , there's not much chance of it rolling . And I like it that way . So there

> Dave <

 

[flymo]

Dave, I just use the e-brake under that circumstance - it works pretty well. I'm completely flummoxed by the new symptom - I guess the good news is that it has never not started after a few tries.

George (of Buford), can you fill me in on where to get that aftermarket starter you mention?

Tim

 

[flymo]

George, I emailed you about where to get an aftermarket starter, but maybe it got stuck in your spam mail, so trying again here.

Tim

 

[ean]

I just picked up a 214 it's in good shape but the paint looks faded but I noticed the top layer was flaking and the paint under it looks a lot better I pressure washed it and not all the paint was flakey do y'all have any ideas. On how to remove the top layer of paint

 

[woodpecker41]

It has been repainted and the painter didn't prep correctly before painting. You don't/can't just remove paint by layers. Sand it until it is smooth, prime and repaint is about your only option. Roger

 

[idupuganti]

Roger, I wonder how much time you spend every day helping others! Guys like you amaze me... I want to complement you and other forum members without whose incredibly valuable help most of us would be lost in the green ocean!

 

[ed_lincoln]

Recently, I washed the cheap second paint job off of a 65 A_C big ten garden tractor with gasoline. It didn't hurt the original paint or the painted over decals. Try a spot were it won't show, first.