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Help please. I have a new to me 318 with p218 motor. The engine was out of tractor for restoration project but he changed his mind. I installed the motor and it wants to almost start but backfires, shoots sparks and spit gas out the carb. I took the top of carb off and cleaned idle jet, and everything else. Could it be the condenser that wires to the coil?
 

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you can get an over sized seat and have a shop machine it and press it in
 

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Gary,

There is a condenser on the Onan with the electronic ignition and if it fails it can cause a lack of spark. Here is the diagram:

Note that the connection for the P series engines is to the + terminal of the coil, whereas the connection with the B series (with points) is to the other side of the coil -- shown in the inset in the diagram for tractors below SN 420,000.


The P series engines *can* get out of time if the rotor in the crankshaft that has the magnet that triggers the electronics module comes off the extended crankshaft key (or the key extension breaks...) I had this happen once and it was a bit difficult to diagnose. Here is a picture of the rotor -- always replace this part when you replace the module so they are the same age...


This is the module location under the stater and beneath the flywheel:


Jay -- Let us know what you find when you replace the valve seat...most likely that is all that is wrong with the Onan.

Chuck
 

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I won't argue with you about that Chuck ….. But as it shows in the schematic there is a condenser …… But i have also seen those types of condensers mounted at the same location on a coil but has absolutely nothing with generating a spark to the Plugs ….we used to install them in cars, boats, motorcycles to reduce radio static interference (on the boats so it would reduce the static with a depth sounders screen the older primitive new school CDI systems back in the beginning of the seventies had a lot of interference tendencies …… I knew that was there on the Onan but assumed that it was there for the exact same reason, so that when you were mowing in a heavily populated subdivision you wouldn't screw-up the neighbours TV picture …… LOL

From what I understand of old school condensers they are a storage unit and they are mounted by the contact points to store the high-voltage energy (old school 12,000 volts) and is released when the points open … but where the condenser is mounted on the Onan it is on the POS 12v power supply terminal TO the coil and has nothing to do with the spark signal to the plugs …….. So unless i'm not seeing something there on the schematic ????

Correct me if i'm totally wrong Chuck but that's why we mounted them there on other power products and cars …. Cheers ….GK
 

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Gary,

The condenser in a conventional points type ignition is there to suppress arcing at the points, which slows the collapse of the magnetic field in the coil (which is a transformer -- converting the low voltage 12 volts to many thousands of volts during the rapid change in magnetic field strength...) and to provide a 'tuned' LC circuit. The points and condenser are on the low voltage side of the system and would never see 12,000 volts. An open condenser in that style of ignition will severely shorten the life of the points themselves and cause the ignition to not be very 'hot' -- particularly at higher RPMs. A shorted condenser in that same style of ignition system will keep the engine from running... A properly operating condenser forms a tuned circuit with the inductance of the primary side of the coil. When the points open, this breaks the primary winding's circuit and abruptly stops the current through the breaker points. Without the steady current through the points, the magnetic field generated in the coil immediately and rapidly collapses. This change in the magnetic field induces a high voltage in the coil's secondary winding.

At the same time, current exits the coil's primary winding and begins to charge up the capacitor (condenser) that lies across the now-open breaker points. This capacitor and the coil’s primary winding form an oscillating LC circuit. This LC circuit produces a damped, oscillating current which bounces energy between the capacitor’s electric field and the ignition coil’s magnetic field. The oscillating current in the coil’s primary, which produces an oscillating magnetic field in the coil, extends the high voltage pulse at the output of the secondary winding. This high voltage thus continues beyond the time of the initial field collapse pulse. The oscillation continues until the circuit’s energy is consumed.

On the electronic ignition on the Onan the condenser will suppress some radio interference as you note -- but again if it is shorted or of low internal resistance as some failure modes produce, the spark will be absent or inadequate. It is not clear if this condenser on the electronic ignition also has any direct function in the generation of the high voltage spark similar to the above from what little information we have on the internals of the "ignition module" from Deere or Onan.

Chuck
 

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Thank-you Chuck
So I guess a if a guy wanted to do an experiment ??? …. a person with a running Onan could try and disconnect the condenser from the coil and see if it still starts and runs, according to your last paragraphs sentence to find out if it has a direct function to create spark ??? ….Yes/No ??? ….
….. GK
 

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Gary,

Yes, and I have heard that there are some engines out there with that condenser removed. I would think the likelihood of them running OK is rather high...but I cannot speak to the longevity of the module if that filter/bypass was there for some reliability reason.

As closely as Deere watches the pennies that add up when building any of their products, I doubt THEY thought it was an 'extra' part...


Chuck
 

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Chuck, that's a good description of the traditional coil/condenser/breaker points ignition. That circuit is a bit more exotic than it appears. The ignition coil has significant self-capacitance in its windings, which the external capacitor (typically .25 microfarad) matches, so it generates a damped sine wave in the coil primary and a much higher voltage than the supply voltage for a few cycles. The basic design came from spark transmitter ringing circuits in early radio (ca. 1910). A couple of big names in applying the circuit to ignition systems were A(rthur) Atwater Kent and Charles Kettering (Delco).

What is important to realize, when diagnosing problems, is that the external capacitor has a major function in generating the high voltage spark after the ignition points open. A failing capacitor often shows up as afterfiring in the exhaust---engine skipping and giving a lot of snap-crackle-pop in the exhaust.

I have wondered about the later Onan setup on the Deere tractors, with an electronic switch, but including a capacitor at the 12V supply terminal.
In the traditional Delco mechanically-switched circuit, a capacitor was mounted on the supply terminal to suppress radio frequency noise in car radios. Why Onan/Deere felt one was needed in an electronically-switched system, I don't know. But as Chuck has pointed out, somebody had to make a case to force the cost engineers to include it.

There may be some confusion about "condenser" vs. "capacitor." When applied to these electrical devices, they are synonymous; i.e., a "condenser" is a capacitor. The term "condenser" was standard in American-speak for all electronic applications until the 1950's, but has continued to live on in the automotive applications.

Hank
 

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How TRUE Chuck !!! ….. But also as i posted that when We installed them back in the day RADIO/TV/2-way Radio communication interference was a huge issue …. so maybe in the same breath JD didn't want repercussions of having screwed up some signals on Friday Night NFL games ….. LMAO ….

When we were Logging ….. Chainsaws with the first Bosch CDI systems were a Huge problem, but in those days there were no fix's that we knew of that would fit within a Saws crankcase housing …. but after all We Were deep in the bush where there was nothing other than 2-way communication … SO if there was need for First Responder needs and a saw was working near by ???

So getting back to the issue of the OP …. the motor should still run without the said mentioned Condenser ???? …… GK
 

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Hank: Worst Car I EVER owned back in the seventies was a TOYOTA Celica !!! …… That car had static noise coming outta everywhere !!! ….. That was a Nippon-Denso system (no slur intended, but that's when everybody was calling them JapCrap) … the said Capacitor/Condensers where mounted all over the place(aftermarket Available from every Radio-Shack as a sure fire way to fix that pesky static noise … So I did … LOL ) ….. On the am/fm/8-track radio, by the CDI module, on the coil, at the distributor, and on the Alternator … as a matter of fact there were 3 on the Alt added there and doubled up on others ALL in theory to reduce noise ….. We even Changed out the ignition leads to the then Hi-Tech stuff !!! …...Got rid of the Car and Got a Full sized '80 Ford Bronco …. LOL …. Cheers … GK
 

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JD 318 - Onan P218G engines have a capacitor (condenser), #HE 312-0256.
Think it was Boomer that stated the engine can/will run without it.

Jay, please post & inform us all how you make out regarding the valve seat repair\replace.
Read somewhere the newer P218Gs were more prone to valve seat issues.
[My other post in this thread was meant to be in reference to troubleshooting backfiring.]

Good luck. Bobo
 

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Gary,

Actually, the worst car I ever owned for bad radio performance was the 1971 Lotus Europa...all fiberglass monocoque and not much to provide ground since there was only a central spine and a 'tuning fork' sub-frame on which the mid-engine and transaxle mounted. There is not much metal ANYWHERE in a 1375 pound car...

I ended up using high quality cassette tapes with DNR and pretty much gave up on radio. Insert the LAYLA album, assume the full lotus (driving) position, and in about 4 hours you can go from Palo Alto to LA...

Here is the car:


and here is the Lotus "frame" layout:


In essence, it was a "non-radio flyer"


Chuck
 

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Sorry about that Bobo ! …..but I guess what triggered that was what you suggested in your post about the condenser …. I am no electronics engineer like Chuck, but the OP was questioning the issues on a P218 with a CDI system where I felt that a condenser was not required to create or support a faulty spark for reason to have a back-fire thru the carb ???
I know when I first saw the condenser on my 'ol P218 that it had no concern to me when it was tune-up time, as in a points system.

My first thought would start as stated "Check the Compression" ….

My second thought if that checked out OK would be either the trigger or a partially sheared KEY on the crankshaft (at the mag) throwing timing off ….
push lawn mowers were famous for that after you hit a rock it could shift the mag just enough to cause a back-fire thru the carb …… Cheers guys ! …… GK
 
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