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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've wanted to try building a dump trailer for the 317 ever since i noticed it had rear remotes. the experiment will be whether i can dump a yard of dirt using the onboard hydraulics via a hybrid scissors lift design i came up with, i'm not expecting too much but we'll see.
this is what i have so far. a base frame with walking beams and pair of uprights.

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the top deck is a little longer than the base and will hinge on the cross member

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then there is the scissors lift, 3 brackets, 3 arms and 2 hydraulic cylinders. eye to eye spread is 55"

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and the running gear, 1.5" stub axles for the walking beams with replaceable inner DOM bushings, 1" spindles for the 4 golf cart tires,

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that's all i have for now, there are a ton more flanges to put holes in, some jigs to make, the 4 hubs need new bearings, etc.
 

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I’m wondering how well the 317 will be able to pull a yard of dirt around if and when an incline is involved with grass or wet grass.
 
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Tractor will need rear wheel weights (cast iron or fluid filled) with Ag or some type of traction tread . I am confident unweighted turf tires won't handle it. I am sure if you have the capability to design and build this cart you will figure out what is needed to use it.

Keep up the good work ... Gabby
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thanks N2, Gabby, this is why i like to post my ideas here, lots of good feedback. i had actually been wondering if there could be too much tongue weight with the 60/40 axle placement and that beast of a scissors lift at the head of the trailer plus 50 lbs of hydraulic cylinders attached to it. i know exactly what you mean with traction issues though. i borrowed a friends 2 place snowmobile trailer to move some sod with the 317, proceeded to load up the rear of the trailer, big mistake! i could not go anywhere with that thing so after figuring out i had the weight dist. all wrong i moved some sod to the head of the trailer and things went much better. that trailer had a 50/50 axle placement which made thing worse. we all need to learn somehow! heh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
started tacking some things together this morning, it goes quick when you have everything pre cut and ready to go.

here is the main frame level and square

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then the tilting deck on top of that

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there will be some hinges mounted to these square tubing

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figuring out where to put the header cross members for the lift arms

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then the upper and lower lift arm mounts

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i call the cross member over the temporary axle my launch pad

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there will be some 1.5" x 1.5" square tubing blocks welded into the end of the scissors arms brackets to keep them from being pushed down when the cylinders start to lift the bed.

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this is how it sits for now. more tomorrow.

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I’m not seeing how it’ll work atm. I’ll just have to wait and learn. Looks good.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
i'm hoping to get the bed hinges tacked in tomorrow, and the rest of the lift mechanism put together with the 2 cylinders then do some range of motion testing.
there has always been a "moment of reckoning" sometime during my projects where something usually goes wrong, and needs correcting, but so far so good.
maybe tomorrow will be that day.
 

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Looks like fun and great work, Paul!

I had two "moments of reckoning" on this dump trailer build. First was the mechanism got too close to over-centering so I changed the orientation of the cylinder on the second version. The final reckoning was that I need the loader to fill the trailer and also tow it. Turns out that the tongue weight (even with a tongue that pivots up and down some) ended too heavy to attach even with the hitch low. I don't use it but it looks nifty. Of course, two tractors would solve the problem.

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Ever considered a rewarding career with NASA. After looking at some of their stuff at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, they could use some good, experienced help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
the 317 has been watching the progress.

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looks like the max angle will be just under 45 degrees. i was hoping for more but this is fine.

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N2, here is the cylinder placement

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at rest the cylinders are parallel to the bottom of the brackets

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some 1/4" UHMW plastic spacers to keep the bed from squeaking.

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rear hinges with replaceable inner DOM bushings, greasable.

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and the cylinder position at full lift, 16" stroke, 42 1/4" extended.

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Looks good. What is the benefit of the scissors lift? When I worked for an ag contractor, all our tipping trucks just had straight cylinders mounted between a subframe on the chassis to a point somewhere on the bed. Either two cylinders on each side of the chassis rails, or one in the center at the front.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
there has always been a lot of debate about scissors vs straight cylinder lifts. the way i see it, using a compact scissors lift with the cylinder and center pivot points close together and the lift cylinder starting out in a horizontal position is like trying to open a door with the door knob 2" away from the hinge, not very easy to do. add resistance to that door and it becomes nearly impossible to swing open. but it is possible if you use enough power, and you can get away with using a shorter stroke cylinder. you can also make a brick fly if you attach a strong enough rocket engine to it.

a single lift cylinder positioned vertically at the front of the dump body is the strongest, but requires several stages of lift to get the job done and a large oil reservoir, not to mention they're expensive.

a pair of long single stage cylinders that start the lift nearly horizontal are not much better than a conventional scissors lift. when the goal is to lift the dump bed vertically, your most powerful option is to start the lift with the lift cylinder(s) positioned as close to vertical as possible. these are just my observations from experience and research.

so i am trying to combine the advantages of a scissors lift with the advantages of using a vertical cylinder by creating a scissors lift with the cylinder(s) at the greatest positive angle possible at the moment of inertia. in this case 30 degrees. the cylinder mount is 13.5" away from the center pivot of the scissors, and i'm getting about 48" of lift from a 16" stroke cylinder, a 3 to 1 ratio. most compact scissors lifts try to move 5" vertically with every 1" of cylinder stroke, which requires a larger bore cylinder, higher system pressure, and puts a lot more stress on the mechanism.

that's my reasoning anyway, i'm not saying i'm right or this is the best way or the only way to go about it. just an idea i cooked up and am trying out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
i'm thinking about using a 50 degree angle coupler but not sure if it gives me enough tongue length and overlap on the frame, please have a look and let me know.

this shows 32" ball to trailer frame, enough for a 5 foot wide vehicle to go lock to lock. it gives me 24" overlap on the frame rails and cross member. is this enough?

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Thanks for the info Paul. I was just curious - I figured it might be due to cost reduction. The single cylinder I had on my Mack dump truck was a four stage I think (30 years ago so the memory is a bit dim...) so it would have cost more than a single stage I'm sure but every dump truck had them. First time I ever saw scissors was maybe 15 years ago.
For your trailer tongue, you could always opt for a single beam drawbar. Again, that's what my dump trailers had - a fairly robust subframe close to the front axle dolly and then an eight inch by 4 inch single beam about 10' long up to the hitch, long enough so that I could jack-knife so the truck was about 2' away from the trailer, side by side, facing in different directions. You could use a similar approach and that would give you up to, equal to, or even more than 90 degrees depending on how far out your hitch extended from the rear plane of the back tires of the tractor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
i'll have to go back and look at the thread on my mini payloader build, i remember doing a test where i extended both cylinders and compared reservoir level. of course that was a 2.5 x 10 and a 2" x 16, so the level will likely drop a little bit more on this setup.
 
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