[Hammerdown-7]

Hello Guy's
I just Picked up an Onan heavy duty air filer Box from our own forum Onan Expert Boomer who is Robert Kummer. I am going to use it on my restored 1983 John Deere 318 that has an Onan P-218 in it. I feel the Higher Profile air filter will filtrate the air better than the standard height profile one it now has. This Heavy Duty top metal air filter box has a Taller profile to it than that of the standard Onan P-218 air filter metal top Portion of the air filter box. John Deere want's over $30.00 for the paper element air filter and foam pre-cleaner that surround's the paper element air filter and I find that price kind of on the stiff side. Is there anyone out there with one of these heavy duty air filter Box's on their Tractor that has found an Outside source for after market air filter's ? This Taller Profile top metal box is the same Exact same one that John Deere Placed on the F-935 Front Mower deck machines with the P-226 Onan engines in them. Regards, Kurt

 

[boomers_influence]

kurt
that engine is the T 260 used on the F 930.
this is according to my onan engine replacement
manual.
thank you. boomer

 

[2popper]

Kurt,
Based on Kummer's fact that it is the same as on the F930, I found the following in the WIX site, http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/filterlookup.aspx

Air Filter #42363 F930 w / Gas Engine AM101812 with the following dimensions: 3.9 height; 8.05 OD; 6.4 ID.
If you do not prefer Wix and the size is correct, you can cross reference from there.

Hope this helps

 

[Hammerdown-7]

Hello Guy's
Thank's for the input here I do have an account with O-Reileys here and they handle WIX brand filters I know now what to get I appreciate your help. Regards, Kurt

 

[oldsguru]

Would there be any interest in a K&N filter for this application? I was thinking about contacting K&N at the cost of making a filter(s). They do currently make one for the standard height air cleaner but not the HD version.

 

[lodogg2221]

No way in heck Id put a K&N in there. Not without another filter over it, and then, whats the point?

 

[Hammerdown-7]

Hello Guy's
I ended up Buying a WIX air filter at O-Rileys auto part's that was less than what John Deere wanted for one being 11.16 it only cost me $7.30 on my commercial account. What I could not get after Market is the foam Pre-filter I was forced to buy it from John Deere and it cost me $16.40 for a Piece of foam I thought that was Plenty but it is over now and on my Tractor. I will Not need filter's for a long time as I wash and flush my foam pre-cleaner Bi-weekly as a clean pre-filter keeps the dirt out of the Piston rings and makes for a happy long life Onan engine. Regards, Kurt

 

[minisub]

Kurt,
I admire your discipline in cleaning your pre-filter twice a month. You might however be having the exact opposite effect than you are trying to achieve. Dirty filters filter better than new/clean ones. Flow goes down, and that is the balancing act that both manufacturers and we as users must balance. I clean mine after the dusty fall leaf season only.

 

[lodogg2221]

Kurt, try Stens 100-875, Toro NN10176, or Briggs 692520.

Nevermind Kurt....those are for the standard filter....

 

[hankvc]

My 318 has the standard filter, which I've felt was adequate. I did buy the hat that covers the filter inside, which came as a kit. I service mine every 20 hours, which takes more like 6-8 weeks.

"Service" to take off the foam bootie and soak it overnight in a water solution of dishwasher liquid and household ammonia, then rinse it two or three times and let dry. After it is dry, I
oil it with a couple of stripes of oil from a Plews oiler, work that into the foam, then blot it thoroughly with a paper towel. The paper element gets blown out with an air blow gun.

Tom, I can't agree with your theory that a dirty filter "filters better." If I let the bootie get too dirty, dirt gets into the paper element. On the cycle I use, the bootie is only about half plugged, with most of the dirt near the air inlet from the duct. Very little gets as far as the paper element.

I have two filters with booties in rotation, so when I do the service, I take one that's already prepared and install it. The one I took out gets rotated into storage for the next service.

All things considered, I'm in a dry area, and the pasture I mow is primarily coarse grasses, with plenty of dirt and dust raised. 25 hours is my cycle time for changing engine oil and filter.

Hank

 

[dr_evil]

HANK -You may not agree with Tom's statement that a "Dirty air filter filters more dirt out of incoming air than a clean filter," But TOM IS CORRECT. I've read that comment from the likes of people like Smokey Yunick, Gordon Jennings, C.J. Baker, etc.

Dry pleated paper elements filter out dirt by "Impingement", trapping the dirt particles in a maze of small fibers. As the maze of fibers gets more dirt particles in it, the spaces between fibers and dirt particles gets smaller, trapping smaller dirt particles. Yes, flow does diminish slightly, but it takes a LOT of dust/dirt to really reduce air flow noticeably.

The foam wraps I run dry. If I did oil them I would use K&N filter oil, it's "sticky" and holds dirt, but if you run them dry, the dust falls off the foam.

I haven't tried this on my Onan yet, but 3M makes a paper wrap for wrapping the ankles of horses, many different colors, and many years ago SON & I started using it to wrap the oiled foam air filter elements on our nitro powered R/C cars. The foam eventually gets dirty and has to be replaced, but it takes two or more weeks of racing, not one. The 3M wrap doesn't restrict air flow into the engine at all... they still run 40,000 RPM by the middle of the straights.

I actually kinda like the air filter arrangement on my B48G Onan, with the foam wrap, it's like a dual stage air filter. MUCH easier to keep dust/dirt out of the engine that what my single cyl.K-series Kohler's use. AND probably the ONLY thing I like about an Onan engine.

 

[hankvc]

Well, Dennis, in theory, Tom is correct. But in engineering, there's an old axiom:

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

My "practice" here is a trade-off between keeping dirt out of intake air, an appropriate maintenance schedule, and cost (of air filters). It's also tailored to Wyoming conditions (dry, dusty). It doesn't take a lot of Wyoming dust to clog a paper filter to excess restriction. If I don't oil the bootie, too much dust goes through to the paper, and won't blow out, so I have to replace it.

The one Kohler K I run (on a CC100) also has an oiled bootie. In both cases, I'm getting two-stage filtration, and getting reasonable service life from the paper element.

Hank

 

[dr_evil]

HANK - We get hot, dry & dusty here in Wisconsin too, but at least the grass doesn't grow as fast. I've mowed in dust so thick I could barely see the end of the hood of the garden tractor. Two yrs ago I went sixty days between mowings, and 50 days last summer.

Last place I worked, the VP of Engineering said Theory was proven out in the lab by testing via accelerated methods, which I would guess would be where your theory AND practice would meet.

SO... If you do some research on dry pleated paper air filters, there's days worth of reading on tests for everything from filter restriction, CFM of air flow, to percentage and size of dirt/dust removed.

Whether you agree or not, TOM & I are correct that dirty filters, filter better. You can service your equipment how you choose, but the test I read 50 yrs ago about checking a dry pleated paper air filter element by holding it up to a bright light, light bulb, sun, whatever, and seeing how much light shines thru is still valid, and what I use to determine service life of my air filters, not just a set time period or engine hours.

My diesel pickup has a filter restriction monitor on it, same thing most ag & construction equipment has....so many inches of restriction trips the meter, and in 300,000+ miles it's NEVER tripped.... even with a quarter inch of dust built up on the frt side of the filter element, back side away from the inlet was not built up at all, just discolored. Like I said, takes an AWFUL lot of dust/dirt to restrict air intake.

 

[minisub]

Hank, I don't think you are talking across purposes with me and Dennis. Your statement "clog a filter to excess restriction" is the key.

Filters flow best and filter worst the day they are installed. They filter best and flow worst the day they are removed. The only reason to change a filter is to maintain adequate flow.

In your conditions, seems that your process allows you to have an acceptable interval between paper element replacement and is a good choice for you.

Dennis, I never use the flow gauge on the truck. I use only AC deco filters, weight them when I put them in and change when they are 1.25 pounds heavier. That takes a very long time...

 

[hankvc]

Tom, you are right, that I'm not talking at cross purposes with you and Dennis. What I'm talking about is what is practical on the ground here in my local conditions.

If I install just a paper filter with no bootie, I might get 10-15 hours on a push mower before it's plugged to serious restriction. An un-oiled dry bootie does not catch enough dust to slow that down particularly significantly.

Oiling the bootie with motor oil makes a dramatic difference. Some dust does go through to the paper, but the bootie catches most of it. That shows in the amounts of mud that settle out when washing one.

Part of my thinking does run along the lines of cost-of-maintenance, where getting 100 hours from purchased expendables vs. 10-20 hours is cost-effective. However, I think it probably true that the less dust presented to the final (paper) filter, the less dust is going to pass through it to the engine.

I'm not really prepared to compare the nature of Wisconsin and other midwestern dust vs. the nature of Wyoming dust. Local soil is alkaline (ph 8.4 by test), with a good deal of bentonite clay mixed in. And pasture grasses that grow well in local soil don't do much surface spreading. Add to that 8.5 inches of annual rainfall. I think we can call it "severe service" and go from there.

Hank

 

[flyingtim01]

Hank, another thing to consider is that most paper element manufacturers recommend you don't blow the filter out with compressed air - the air breaks apart the paper fibers and makes holes in the element. I think knocking the filter against the tire or some other firm yet yielding surface is the preferred method and helps you get that good balance between a new filter that's wide open and a filter with some miles on it that's starting to restrict flow a bit and needs the clumps knocked off it.

On a related note, I'm fairly certain that the old style oil bath filters filtered fine dust better than the later paper elements, and didn't restrict air flow at all. You just needed to dump the old oil when it became dirty, wipe the sludge off the bottom, and refill. So it would stand to reason that if you had severe circumstances, you would want the oiled prefilter to extend the filtering ability of your setup and the life of your paper element.

 

[dr_evil]

TIM - The research I've done on air filters show that NO mfg. states the percentage of dust/dirt an oil bath air cleaner will catch, but information I have says between 90% & 95% is typical.

A dry pleated paper element is between 98% and 99.9+%.

A large portion of the reason why car, truck & tractor engines last so long today is because of the vastly improved filtering technology we have today, both oil and air. The oils have gotten better too, but keeping the oil clean makes the engines last. There is a certain range of dirt particle size that causes the most engine wear, sizes smaller than that are embedded in the oil film and cause no wear except on oil seals. Larger size particles are easily removed by the oil filters. There are centrifugal oil filters that are so effective, that they actually remove the additives put into oil to improve their lubrication properties.

 

[flyingtim01]

Dennis, maybe I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to suggest that paper elements were a downgrade from oil bath filters. Though I think in severe environments oil bath air filters have their place, as they can still be effective past the point in which a paper element would have been clogged and would be restricting flow to the point of choking out the engine, that was my point.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've put a foam prefilter around the paper element on the K301 in my 140. I'm running it dry now, but I'm going to keep an eye on it, and I'm thinking I may oil it later in the season when things dry out and get a little dustier towards the fall, at the latest.

You're absolutely right about technology improvements. Used to be a gas engine rebuild was a given around 50,000 miles. These days you can expect to go at least three times that before major service, and probably more with good maintenance. Actually, on the wall of my garage that was built in 1910, there are faded 'service records' that show one of the previous owners ground the valves of his Lincoln at 6,000 miles!

 

[knottyrope]

my Toyota van is at 200,000 miles with out burning oil or any leaks. my dads 70 nova started to leak at about 30k miles.

times have changed for sure

 

[lodogg2221]

Is that all Knotty? My VW Jetta is at 295,000. No leaks, everything works, although it does burn about a gallon of "oil" every 50 or so miles. Lol!