I bought an old ser#003122 140 H1 with a blown motor. I found a crankshaft, piston and rod from a member in Maine and reassembled the engine. The only problem I'm having (so far) is trying to get the electric PTO set up right. The driven (outer plate) is in contact with the inner plate at all times. I tried to shim the outer plate out, but that locked up the motor???? What in blue blazes is going on---or a going out of my mind???
PTO on my 140
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Ken Do you have some pictures so we can see which PTO you have. There are several different kinds, some with a brake system and some without.
Also did you take it apart, some have spacers to set the distance between the driven disc and the driving hub initally.
If you removed the field coil it has to be centered with the driving hub.
Also did you take it apart, some have spacers to set the distance between the driven disc and the driving hub initally.
If you removed the field coil it has to be centered with the driving hub.
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Ken,
For your serial number, you should not have a brake system. I posted the <10,000 PTO assy.
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Did the replacement crankshaft come from a K301AS with the same spec number as what you took out? If the spec number was different, the crankshaft maybe different. The necked down diameter the rotor and pulley assembly butts-up against maybe at a different location than what you had.
By shimming out your field coil assembly, you are forcing the front of the coil into the rotor. This will cause the engine to lock when the bolt is tightened.
Check your crankshaft to be sure it is not bent. If there is run-out on this shaft, this will also cause the rotor and pulley to contact the field assembly. Install the field assembly with no shims.. I agree with Ken, you should also check the field assembly to the crankshaft to be sure it is centered (preferably within .001” runout max, but there is no spec on these older blocks that I am aware of). Install the rotor and pulley assembly, spacer, and locking bolt with washer. If everything is centered, but still locking when tightened, you may need to shim out the rotor & pulley assembly using a thrust washer with the same ID & OD as what is on the pilot end which butts against the crankshaft.
I will also add, make sure the plate for the feild coil which bolts to the block is not bent or damaged from the crank seal. This plate should be flat and not come in contact with anything except for the block.
For your serial number, you should not have a brake system. I posted the <10,000 PTO assy.
Did the replacement crankshaft come from a K301AS with the same spec number as what you took out? If the spec number was different, the crankshaft maybe different. The necked down diameter the rotor and pulley assembly butts-up against maybe at a different location than what you had.
By shimming out your field coil assembly, you are forcing the front of the coil into the rotor. This will cause the engine to lock when the bolt is tightened.
Check your crankshaft to be sure it is not bent. If there is run-out on this shaft, this will also cause the rotor and pulley to contact the field assembly. Install the field assembly with no shims.. I agree with Ken, you should also check the field assembly to the crankshaft to be sure it is centered (preferably within .001” runout max, but there is no spec on these older blocks that I am aware of). Install the rotor and pulley assembly, spacer, and locking bolt with washer. If everything is centered, but still locking when tightened, you may need to shim out the rotor & pulley assembly using a thrust washer with the same ID & OD as what is on the pilot end which butts against the crankshaft.
I will also add, make sure the plate for the feild coil which bolts to the block is not bent or damaged from the crank seal. This plate should be flat and not come in contact with anything except for the block.
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Interesting Ken, that is the brake style PTO. I do not have any schematics on it. But assembly is similar. Mount the field coil to the block, check for center, place brake hub on shaft, ensure it turns freely, place springs on the four studs protruding from the field coil assy. and mount pulley assy. to shaft & field assy., place locking nuts on four studs, tighten center pulley bolt to the shaft. Evenly tighten the four outer nuts on the studs and check gap between brake and pulley until the gap is .018”. If you still have a binding problem, you maybe missing some spacers.
I emailed you some info on my 318 PTO. It is a very similar setup.
I emailed you some info on my 318 PTO. It is a very similar setup.
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147 Posts
Ken it looks like you have the newer OGURA AM38532 PTO, and it looks like you have the early engine so you need to use (M46876) installation instructions to install it correctly. It doesn't look like you have the heat shield that goes between the PTO and the muffler.
Go to:
http://www.wfmfiles.com/
And download (140 installing PTO clutch AM38532).pdf
When you go to put it all together turn your crankshaft so the keyway is pointing up, then as you slide the rotor on put the key in the rotor as you slide it forward. Sometimes if you place the key near the engine it will slide up as you slide the rotor on and it will cause it to bind up.
Also the bushing or collar that you put on last as you bolt the PTO to the crankshaft either comes with one end slightly tapered or gets flattened out after being bolted to the crankshaft over time and the bushing will usually only go on one way.
Hope this helps, if you need drawings let me know and I can send them to you.
Go to:
http://www.wfmfiles.com/
And download (140 installing PTO clutch AM38532).pdf
When you go to put it all together turn your crankshaft so the keyway is pointing up, then as you slide the rotor on put the key in the rotor as you slide it forward. Sometimes if you place the key near the engine it will slide up as you slide the rotor on and it will cause it to bind up.
Also the bushing or collar that you put on last as you bolt the PTO to the crankshaft either comes with one end slightly tapered or gets flattened out after being bolted to the crankshaft over time and the bushing will usually only go on one way.
Hope this helps, if you need drawings let me know and I can send them to you.
I've seen the .018 gap setting in a number of messages and I don't think this applies to all clutches. My service manual for my 300 and 314 states to use .012-.014 as the setting for the above type clutch. I've never had a problem with this setting. Just my thoughts.
Bob
Bob
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Bob,
Here is a chart from a slide presentation on Ogura's web site -- note that the nominal 0.018 used so often on this site is pretty much conservatively toward the center of the lower half of each range, allowing for some wear and still continue to function...
Too tight an adjustment can cause drag and accelerated wear, but it is the heat generated (wihch can cause coil failure) that is the biggest reason to not set the gap too small.
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Chuck
Here is a chart from a slide presentation on Ogura's web site -- note that the nominal 0.018 used so often on this site is pretty much conservatively toward the center of the lower half of each range, allowing for some wear and still continue to function...
Too tight an adjustment can cause drag and accelerated wear, but it is the heat generated (wihch can cause coil failure) that is the biggest reason to not set the gap too small.
Chuck
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147 Posts
Actually on the installation instructions they call for .010 to .012 air gap. That same type clutch is used on all the old Cubs and they also recommend the .010 to .012 air gap and I've never seen one go bad for that.
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Bob,
No heat if it does not drag...
Richard, I am not familiar with the Cubs, but agree that the manufacturer's recommendation should be followed in all cases. If the manual says something other than 0.018 inches, then that recommended value should be used as a starting point.
Chuck
No heat if it does not drag...
Richard, I am not familiar with the Cubs, but agree that the manufacturer's recommendation should be followed in all cases. If the manual says something other than 0.018 inches, then that recommended value should be used as a starting point.
Chuck
Thanks to everyone who contributed their expertise to my problem. I had the clutch off and back on 4 times, with lots of head scratching in between. The last time I ground the paint off the mating surface on the block and reinstalled the clutch with a .030 shim between the rotor and the pulley, no lock up and I was able to adjust the air gap. I still don't get it.
Ken,
The clutch on my 300 that I'm in the process of finishing had a shim also. I found that the bearing, which was toast, was loose both in between the 2 snap rings and was also not a press fit anymore in the housing. I took the shim out and put my "emergency bearing" in with lock tite bearing retainer. Made sure the 2 snap rings were put in with the bow inward and it works great. Eventually I will have to replace it, but for now it works ok.
BTW, the "emergency bearing" was one I replaced from my 314. Really didn't need it but did it anyway. Also the bow I refer to is when you take these snap rings out they sometimes are no longer flat. Should really have replaced them.
Bob
The clutch on my 300 that I'm in the process of finishing had a shim also. I found that the bearing, which was toast, was loose both in between the 2 snap rings and was also not a press fit anymore in the housing. I took the shim out and put my "emergency bearing" in with lock tite bearing retainer. Made sure the 2 snap rings were put in with the bow inward and it works great. Eventually I will have to replace it, but for now it works ok.
BTW, the "emergency bearing" was one I replaced from my 314. Really didn't need it but did it anyway. Also the bow I refer to is when you take these snap rings out they sometimes are no longer flat. Should really have replaced them.
Bob
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147 Posts
The electrical PTO's used on the JD-120 & 140'S are basically the same as the WARNER and OGURA PTO's used on the early Cub Cadets.
Since I own and work on both John Deere and Cub Cadet Lawn tractors (as a Hobby) I have all of the service manuals and parts manuals for both machines.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is the John Deere service manual doesn't say much about the PTO's and the drawings leave a lot to be desired. Even the parts manual leaves you guessing.
The Cub Cadet manual gives a lot of information with good drawings.
Where Ken say he had to put a shim between the rotor and the pulley is not covered in either John Deere manual and you won't even find a pulley in the parts manual. They show an armature that is hard to recognize how it would work.
In the Cub service manual they call the rotor and the pulley a driving hub and a driven disc.
The first thing they tell you is to check the clearance between the driving hub and the driven disc and if it is not a gap of .060 - .090 that you need to shim it with a shim kit. The later PTO's came with a fixed preset clearance.
I'm not trying to bad mouth John Deere manuals I just think they kind of skimmed over the PTO's to the point if you don't already know how they work you would be lost.
I have found other things covered in the John Deere manuals that are better explained than the Cub Manuals do. I think it just depends on who wrote that particlar area.
Since I own and work on both John Deere and Cub Cadet Lawn tractors (as a Hobby) I have all of the service manuals and parts manuals for both machines.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is the John Deere service manual doesn't say much about the PTO's and the drawings leave a lot to be desired. Even the parts manual leaves you guessing.
The Cub Cadet manual gives a lot of information with good drawings.
Where Ken say he had to put a shim between the rotor and the pulley is not covered in either John Deere manual and you won't even find a pulley in the parts manual. They show an armature that is hard to recognize how it would work.
In the Cub service manual they call the rotor and the pulley a driving hub and a driven disc.
The first thing they tell you is to check the clearance between the driving hub and the driven disc and if it is not a gap of .060 - .090 that you need to shim it with a shim kit. The later PTO's came with a fixed preset clearance.
I'm not trying to bad mouth John Deere manuals I just think they kind of skimmed over the PTO's to the point if you don't already know how they work you would be lost.
I have found other things covered in the John Deere manuals that are better explained than the Cub Manuals do. I think it just depends on who wrote that particlar area.
Ken,
Had the same problem with an OGURA. I was really upset.
Check the ROTOR for clearance to the bolts into the block. I tried to out smart the situation by adding washers in the re-build. This caused the bolt heads to lock the rotor.
So, after removing the washers "as per original" all is fine.
Had the same problem with an OGURA. I was really upset.
Check the ROTOR for clearance to the bolts into the block. I tried to out smart the situation by adding washers in the re-build. This caused the bolt heads to lock the rotor.
So, after removing the washers "as per original" all is fine.
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